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小毛
我是老鳥
Taiwan
10685 Posts |
 Posted - 07/17/2018 : 16:36:45
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有關雷達散熱的討論可以擺到這裡喔。
就我不專業的認知，一般的T/R模組可能不會內建液冷迴路，而是把液冷迴路內建在固定用的背板或是叫做底座的裝置上，所以T/R模組可能本身並不會遇到什麼液體洩漏或是凝結等問題，畢竟沒有直接接觸冷卻液體。
相對於氣冷式需要嚴格設計散熱片表面積與控制風流強度與流量，液冷式(指背板冷卻迴路)可以將散熱設計集中設計在背板或底座簡化其複雜度與提高可靠度。
如果把液冷做在T/R模組上，單一模組如果發生洩漏可能會嚴重影響其他模組。若是要拆下單一模組，還要考慮關閉冷卻液體閥門的問題。
但是相對的，使用背板或底座集中散熱的設計方式有較多優點，目前在熱傳導與熱交換上面有很多技術可用(如導熱管傳導)，可以把T/R模組所發出的熱量快速帶走，避免模組因為累積熱量溫度過高，影響了半導體的使用效率甚至超過工作溫度範圍造成可靠度問題。單一T/R模組的拆裝都不影響整體的散熱效果，在可靠度方面有較好的表現。
另外水冷只是液冷的一種方式之一，冷卻液不一定要用水，但是水相對的便宜和容易補充容易取得。以船艦來說，海水算是取之不盡用之不絕的資源，但是因為含鹽分的關係一般也不會用來做第一級的散熱用途，而是透過熱交換器去化解從導熱裝置或是回流冷卻水那邊帶來的熱量。應該沒有人會想要讓海水進到電子零件附近..........
** 小毛的新幻想空間逐漸復活中(新增3D圖喔).....**
http://lordmrx.pixnet.net/blog
歡迎參觀 |
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romelchen
新手上路
Taiwan
190 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2018 : 17:03:55
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看一下目前 cpu 及 GFx 的液冷系統, 會比較清楚, 雖然不是同一個東西, 沒有液冷, 高頻 GFx or cpu, 難搗
旣然你誠心誠意的發問
我們就大發慈悲告訴你 |
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kmleu
路人甲乙丙
1104 Posts |
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romelchen
新手上路
Taiwan
190 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2018 : 18:15:39
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氣冷好處, 便宜, 體積小, 缺點, fan高可靠度也是近期才能作, 另外, 吹出來熱空氣向那吹?
GFx 用的就是銅管液冷, 缺點, 就貴, 機構,
還有一種用 LV300 那種溫控頭, 好用, 可以溫控, 可低溫. 也不貴, 但不玩可靠度, 機構也不好弄,
以前看 Cray 傳記, 散熱是機械工程人員的活
旣然你誠心誠意的發問
我們就大發慈悲告訴你 |
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romelchen
新手上路
Taiwan
190 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2018 : 18:24:34
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Sorry, 沒注意到上面, 熱導管已經大幅降價, 機構地不太限制, 但會有些水氣, 比較要解決
旣然你誠心誠意的發問
我們就大發慈悲告訴你 |
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Captain Picard
我是老鳥
9659 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2018 : 07:36:55
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兩年前網路上一位曾參與346相控陣論證階段的研製人員（後移加拿大）文章中有提到，不是很滿意一開始346相控陣的風冷設計：
＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝
8月，海装就S-波段雷达装舰问题组织了一次专家与有关部门提问，14所团队回答的052C舰答疑讨论会（原052B舰将先安装前面所提到的背对背过渡相 控阵）。主要针对阵面通风散热，组件更换方式，将来设备放置要求，电磁兼容，抗盐雾和防腐等一系列问题。 由于14所有“远望号“远洋测量船180雷达的经验，又经过江南造船厂的实地考察，除了阵面通风散热这个问题外，我觉得其他问题解答得都很圆满。关于阵面 通风散热， 陈洪元的解答是采用玻璃钢天线罩形成静压风道循环的风冷方式，当时专家们也没提出异议。原因是其他方式（如液冷）就舰艇而言困难更大。但我总觉得这不是理 想的方案。只是个权宜之策。
为了14所能通过专家提问会，我没有贸然将我的不放心说出来。但多少年来，我对052C的阵面有两点耿耿于怀的不满意（或者说是担心），只是当时条件所限，也�荍韟n的办法。
这两点不满意是：
1）052C装相控阵的舰墙不够高。虽然阵面也装在了基本是45度的测面，但舰的栏杆会对低角有影响，特别是在舰的中轴线上，设备很多，对雷达的低角能力影响就更大
2）采用天线罩的回流通风方 式。这种方案有两个问题：一大一小。大问题是万一打仗时，天线罩给打出个大窟窿（小洞还影响不大），那么风道就彻底破坏了，即便有源阵没坏（或部分坏，但 还可工作），由于阵面发热，当时就不得不停止工作。小问题是阵面中间的T/R组件最多，为了加大静压通风风力，天线罩必然要中间鼓起来，除了不好看外，也 增加了天线罩受攻击的概率。
对第一点不满意，我只有指望将来舰艇的动力有了解 决方案，舰自然就会造高造大，低角遮挡问题也自然解决。对第二点不满意，我回所后与陈洪元和李亨昭（工艺主师）都商量过好几次，希望能采用冷板或内循环液 冷的冷却方案。但最终因当时有阵面重量，T/R组件小型化（轻型化），以及结构工艺等多种限制。只好先用风冷将就了。
=========================
MDC Naval Ensign. |
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dasha
版主
41777 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2018 : 08:05:31
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認真講這問題有好幾個層級:
1.個別晶片或零件散熱.
2.T或R模組散熱.
3.T/R模組散熱.
4.十幾個到廿幾個T/R模組合成的單一區塊散熱.
5.單面天線散熱.
6.所有天線散熱.
7.全系統散熱.
印象中,鋪路爪那種大傢伙還有幾百個T/R模組的多區塊散熱......
國軍版那邊在吵的,一個是講1~3那個層級的技術,另一個是在講5~7那個層級的技術......
然後因為系統本身的技術不同,有的產品1~3其實是同一個東西,有的3~5是同一個東西,幾乎沒有哪種雷達是可以從硬體上拆成1~7這麼多層的,所以更容易混淆. |
Edited by - dasha on 07/18/2018 08:08:08 |
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cwchang2100
我是老鳥
Cayman Islands
17243 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2018 : 08:12:45
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可以看到老共也知道解決方法,可是受限於技術水平,找了個很畸形的解決方案.
CEAFAR不就是用冷卻板導熱? 不過老共的冷板,可能材料太重,就沒辦法上.
這在歐美日等材料先進國,問題就沒那麼大.
幾年前,我們還碰到日本沖電器在推一種新材料.
就兩片貼紙,一片貼在熱源,可以將熱轉成紅外線發射到對面,
對面那張貼紙接收到紅外線之後,變成熱,就散掉.
等於是把空氣當導熱管.但不靠空氣本身的熱傳導.
歐美日這種怪材料不少,能解決這種散熱問題的方案還很多.
老共就只能用一些怪方案.然後還有人要吹牛說有多先進.
看了就讓人暈倒.
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這些秘密話語來自活著的耶穌，由迪迪摩斯•猶大•多馬記錄。
他說：「任何人發現了這些話的意義，將不會嚐到死亡的滋味。」
多馬福音第1節 |
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zfss
路人甲乙丙
2266 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2018 : 08:23:10
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| 346研制的年代离现在有20年了，有差距很正常。而且还要考虑到052C吨位不大，上层建筑不能太重，346阵面的重量也是受限的。 |
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Captain Picard
我是老鳥
9659 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2018 : 08:57:59
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quote:
Originally posted by cwchang2100
可以看到老共也知道解決方法,可是受限於技術水平,找了個很畸形的解決方案.
CEAFAR不就是用冷卻板導熱? 不過老共的冷板,可能材料太重,就沒辦法上.
這在歐美日等材料先進國,問題就沒那麼大.
底層材料、加工技術、器件、原動機水平落後，這個比頂層設計理念還難追趕。
1990年代末期中國的半導體技術甚至還存在很多「有無問題」，何況是T/R組件需要的MMIC。那篇文章就有提到南京14所的多功能S波段相控陣方案被質疑；在萌芽階段的電子器件技術就只能先前有。中國加大投資軍工以及電子技術也是1990年代結束的時候才開始，所以346設計階段估計「因陋就簡」的情況不少。
＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝
回到所后， 我们立即就雷达进行了工程化论证，并展开了天线小面阵的试研（孙茂友老师指导，牛宝君负责天线研制）。同时重点集中到T/R组件的攻关突破。因为，航天部 23所到处攻击14所所采用的固态有源阵的核心部件是T/R组件，但14所是做不出合乎阵面要求的T/R组件的。当时，在香山，就已经有专家对T/R组件 的研制表示不怎么放心，但14所和13所都当场做出了保证，才使方案通过。 现经23所一挑，军委迫于压力，下指示说，要14所在短期内先突破这一关键技术， 否则经费不予下拨
....
然而， T/R组件的研制并不容易。 14所过去以“863”高科技课题为基础，研制过L-波段的T/R组件。 但是这次舰载雷达采用是S-波段，它比L-波段的波长短。因此要求T/R的体积组件的体积更小（因为按天线理论，要形成波束，天线单元间隔要求在半波长附 近）；重量更轻；各单元之间的干扰隔离能力更强。
为了减体积降重量， 我们采用了4个单元做在一起的4单元T/R组件方案。按波长要求，必须在20cm宽，5cm厚, 45cm长的体积内，并排放入4个各自能独立工作的T/R组件单元。由于4个单元满功率工作时最大功率达到近100W，就带来了散热，重量，相互之间的各 种物理干扰等搅在了一体的难题。同时大功率发射， 不仅带来了发射管可靠性和自激的问题，同时收发开关和环流器隔离度要求也大大提高。因此外界的责疑是可理解的。如果不能做出满足指标的4单元T/R组 件，14所的固态有源相控阵方案就是空话。
=========================
MDC Naval Ensign. |
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romelchen
新手上路
Taiwan
190 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2018 : 09:36:01
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理論,模擬,是建立在元仲特性旳硬指標上, Ex:process, Library, 材料,
旣然你誠心誠意的發問
我們就大發慈悲告訴你 |
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cwchang2100
我是老鳥
Cayman Islands
17243 Posts |
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kmleu
路人甲乙丙
1104 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2018 : 10:39:06
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| 基板是指(Multilayer Alumina Ceramics Substrate)嗎?基板要走線路嗎? 或是T/R module 固定在基板上? |
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romelchen
新手上路
Taiwan
190 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2018 : 10:55:31
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"基板就考慮散熱,為鋁/陶瓷材質". 果然是內行!,
目前 常見的 Hw bus spec,只: Physical, Link, Transport(TP), Class driver. bus driver, Os layer,
磚塊厚....
旣然你誠心誠意的發問
我們就大發慈悲告訴你 |
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cwchang2100
我是老鳥
Cayman Islands
17243 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2018 : 10:58:17
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quote:
Originally posted by kmleu
基板是指(Multilayer Alumina Ceramics Substrate)嗎?基板要走線路嗎? 或是T/R module 固定在基板上?
是的,應該是前者,但是實際意義上也算有固定的用意.
-----------------
這些秘密話語來自活著的耶穌，由迪迪摩斯•猶大•多馬記錄。
他說：「任何人發現了這些話的意義，將不會嚐到死亡的滋味。」
多馬福音第1節 |
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冗丙
版主
Taiwan
16080 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2018 : 11:11:39
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液冷??
--------------------------------------------------------------
Zhuk AE Design Philosophy - A Radar Engineering Perspective
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Zhuk-AE-Analysis.html
Phazotron summarise the key design components as:
Antenna face with radiator elements.
TR channel electronics, each connected to a radiator element.
Cold plate liquid cooling system.
Array power supply.
Control logic for each TR channel.
RF feed for the array.
Secondary power supplies.
Beam control processor to generate beamsteering commands.
Cooling was arranged by mounting each TR module on an integral frame cold plate, the latter being actively cooled by liquid flow. Heat is transferred from each MMIC or transistor into the base of the module, and then into the cold plate for removal. Phazotron have not disclosed the thickness of the cold plates or TR modules, but clearly the horizontal element pitch is the hard constraint here. Each TR module includes an embedded thermal sensor which forces a module shutdown if overheating occurs, and restart cannot occur until the module cools down. All modules are thermally compensated in amplitude and phase to ensure that the performance characteristics remain aligned regardless of temperature and operating frequency.
Active Electronically Steered Arrays
A Maturing Technology
http://www.ausairpower.net/aesa-intro.html
Are there any drawbacks to the AESA? Two issues are of key importance with this technology.
The first item of interest is power dissipation. Due to the behaviour of microwave transistor amplifiers, the power efficiency of a TR module transmitter is typically less than 45%. As a result, an AESA will dissipate a lot of heat which must be extracted to prevent the transmitter chips becoming molten pools of Gallium Arsenide - reliability of GaAs MMIC chips improves the cooler they are run. Traditional air cooling used in most established avionic hardware is ill suited to the high packaging density of an AESA, as a result of which modern AESAs are liquid cooled. US designs employ a polyalphaolefin (PAO) coolant similar to a synthetic hydraulic fluid. A typical liquid cooling system will use pumps to drive the coolant through channels in the antenna, and then route it to a heat exchanger. That might be an air cooled core (radiator style) or an immersed heat exchanger in a fuel tank - with a second liquid cooling loop to dump heat from the fuel tank. In comparison with a conventional air cooled fighter radar, the AESA will be more reliable but will require more electrical power and more cooling, and typically can produce much higher transmit power if needed for greater target detection range performance (increasing transmitted power has the drawback of increasing the footprint over which a hostile ESM or RWR can detect the radar).
忠義衛飯筒~剽悍吃燒肉~~
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cwchang2100
我是老鳥
Cayman Islands
17243 Posts |
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cwchang2100
我是老鳥
Cayman Islands
17243 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2018 : 11:19:57
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quote:
Originally posted by 冗丙
液冷??
--------------------------------------------------------------
Zhuk AE Design Philosophy - A Radar Engineering Perspective
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Zhuk-AE-Analysis.html
Phazotron summarise the key design components as:
Antenna face with radiator elements.
TR channel electronics, each connected to a radiator element.
Cold plate liquid cooling system.
Array power supply.
Control logic for each TR channel.
RF feed for the array.
Secondary power supplies.
Beam control processor to generate beamsteering commands.
Cooling was arranged by mounting each TR module on an integral frame cold plate, the latter being actively cooled by liquid flow. Heat is transferred from each MMIC or transistor into the base of the module, and then into the cold plate for removal. Phazotron have not disclosed the thickness of the cold plates or TR modules, but clearly the horizontal element pitch is the hard constraint here. Each TR module includes an embedded thermal sensor which forces a module shutdown if overheating occurs, and restart cannot occur until the module cools down. All modules are thermally compensated in amplitude and phase to ensure that the performance characteristics remain aligned regardless of temperature and operating frequency.
Active Electronically Steered Arrays
A Maturing Technology
http://www.ausairpower.net/aesa-intro.html
Are there any drawbacks to the AESA? Two issues are of key importance with this technology.
The first item of interest is power dissipation. Due to the behaviour of microwave transistor amplifiers, the power efficiency of a TR module transmitter is typically less than 45%. As a result, an AESA will dissipate a lot of heat which must be extracted to prevent the transmitter chips becoming molten pools of Gallium Arsenide - reliability of GaAs MMIC chips improves the cooler they are run. Traditional air cooling used in most established avionic hardware is ill suited to the high packaging density of an AESA, as a result of which modern AESAs are liquid cooled. US designs employ a polyalphaolefin (PAO) coolant similar to a synthetic hydraulic fluid. A typical liquid cooling system will use pumps to drive the coolant through channels in the antenna, and then route it to a heat exchanger. That might be an air cooled core (radiator style) or an immersed heat exchanger in a fuel tank - with a second liquid cooling loop to dump heat from the fuel tank. In comparison with a conventional air cooled fighter radar, the AESA will be more reliable but will require more electrical power and more cooling, and typically can produce much higher transmit power if needed for greater target detection range performance (increasing transmitted power has the drawback of increasing the footprint over which a hostile ESM or RWR can detect the radar).
俄國佬也是用制冷板的方式,T/R基板連著制冷板,
然後制冷板的另一端再用液體冷卻(可能是水),
這是初級的冷卻系統.
吸了熱的冷卻液再用幫浦打到第二冷卻系統的熱交換器.
在那裡用燃料來冷卻.
-----------------
這些秘密話語來自活著的耶穌，由迪迪摩斯•猶大•多馬記錄。
他說：「任何人發現了這些話的意義，將不會嚐到死亡的滋味。」
多馬福音第1節 |
Edited by - cwchang2100 on 07/18/2018 11:21:25 |
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romelchen
新手上路
Taiwan
190 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2018 : 11:22:07
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現今高速有線 bus, 有＄? 用高擋的封裝, 基板散熱. ex. 陶瓷, IBM, 京瓷, 很早在用...
IEEE 好像有談封裝及 RADAR 專頁.
想省＄? 用 Tx/ Rx 各種省電模式設定, 但須 trade off 功能, IEEE上很多,
旣然你誠心誠意的發問
我們就大發慈悲告訴你 |
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冗丙
版主
Taiwan
16080 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2018 : 11:52:10
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IEEE上本來就很多討論散熱的問題，問題是中科/工研院做不到，大概只能找台積電了
----------------------------------------------------------------------
老美也是液冷耶??
US designs employ a polyalphaolefin (PAO) coolant similar to a synthetic hydraulic fluid. A typical liquid cooling system will use pumps to drive the coolant through channels in the antenna, and then route it to a heat exchanger. That might be an air cooled core (radiator style) or an immersed heat exchanger in a fuel tank - with a second liquid cooling loop to dump heat from the fuel tank.
忠義衛飯筒~剽悍吃燒肉~~
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dasha
版主
41777 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2018 : 11:55:35
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quote:
Originally posted by 冗丙
IEEE上本來就很多討論散熱的問題，問題是中科/工研院做不到，大概只能找台積電了
----------------------------------------------------------------------
老美也是液冷耶??
US designs employ a polyalphaolefin (PAO) coolant similar to a synthetic hydraulic fluid. A typical liquid cooling system will use pumps to drive the coolant through channels in the antenna, and then route it to a heat exchanger. That might be an air cooled core (radiator style) or an immersed heat exchanger in a fuel tank - with a second liquid cooling loop to dump heat from the fuel tank.
忠義衛飯筒~剽悍吃燒肉~~
這一段文字講的是小弟說的4~6,而上面一堆人講的是小弟說的1~3. |
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cwchang2100
我是老鳥
Cayman Islands
17243 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2018 : 15:39:11
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quote:
Originally posted by 冗丙
IEEE上本來就很多討論散熱的問題，問題是中科/工研院做不到，大概只能找台積電了
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老美也是液冷耶??
US designs employ a polyalphaolefin (PAO) coolant similar to a synthetic hydraulic fluid. A typical liquid cooling system will use pumps to drive the coolant through channels in the antenna, and then route it to a heat exchanger. That might be an air cooled core (radiator style) or an immersed heat exchanger in a fuel tank - with a second liquid cooling loop to dump heat from the fuel tank.
這裏的老美方案就是指F-35啦. PAO就是F-35用的冷卻液.
因為這幾年老美唯一的戰機開發案就是F-35.
不過,方法是有點倒過來,也就是說天線結構內有留一些管道(channel),
冷卻液就流過這些管道把熱搜集起來,之後再經過熱交換器,
利用空氣或是燃料將熱排掉.
T/R模組端其實也是靠傳熱的材質將熱散到管道裏.
只是PAO導熱的效率比較高,導熱的效率比較好.
不過,這些管路也增加維護的困難,
F-35曾經因為在燃料箱的PAO管路有問題(封閉不良,污染燃料)而停飛.
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這些秘密話語來自活著的耶穌，由迪迪摩斯•猶大•多馬記錄。
他說：「任何人發現了這些話的意義，將不會嚐到死亡的滋味。」
多馬福音第1節 |
Edited by - cwchang2100 on 07/18/2018 15:46:10 |
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小毛
我是老鳥
Taiwan
10685 Posts |
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標題 |
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關於AESA/PESA的散熱討論
