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Reinherd Von Hwang提督
我是老鳥
USA
9628 Posts |
 Posted - 09/22/2014 : 05:36:42
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quote:
Originally posted by olddog
很難想像以目前的財政及人力狀況，會想4個計畫一起玩.....這可不是爆肝可以解決的.....
這也不不得已的巴
過二十年後國軍所有艦艇通通都要面對過度老舊不得不除役的問題
(諾克斯和基隆外加國軍所有兩棲登陸艦艇我相信都不可能撐20年)
就算是成功和小拉拉勉強可以撐到2035年,還是得推四個計畫
其實海軍的計畫還不止這四個, 應該還有今年流標的國造獵雷艦計畫
以及幾年前就有風聲的國造拖救艦(取代大字號拖船)計畫
外加可能會有的迅海量產計畫
當然目前來看野心真的不可思議的大
不過我覺得以二十年的時間來看, 小baby都變成成年人的時間一切也難講
我覺得有問題的不是錢, 因為這幾年是國防預算特別特別吃緊的時間點
主要原因我認為是因為2008到今年為止, 台灣國防預算受到三個方面的緊縮
一個是大環境經濟不景氣, 二是推動全募兵制, 三是我們在這六年同時間推動至少三個大採購案
這是美國國會對台軍售年度報告書
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL30957.pdf
大家來算一算這六年的國防對美採購帳本, 美國FMS對台軍售報告的帳(第59頁).
08年開始重大的採購案和金額是愛三 (2008年31億+2010年追加採購28.1億美金);
AH64 (25.32億),
UH60 (30.1億). 共計114.52億美金.
並且還有P-3C的採購案(2007年開始, 19.6億美金)
這筆帳的付款高峰是從08年到12~13年 (印象中 要回去翻國防預算書).
這樣玩台灣的國防經費在過去六年不捉襟見伷根本不可能
(同時台灣還要擠出錢來採購雲豹甲車 IDF升級 30艘光六快艇 2艘顎級掃雷艦 以及推動錢坑募兵制
我覺得2008~14年台灣似乎在"補進度", 因為看美台軍售報告
1998~2007年這9年台灣幾乎沒有像美國推動大規模軍事採購
除了2002年的紀德級購艦案 8.9億美金;和早期預警雷達 17億美金, 此外幾乎沒有大採購
所以台灣過去這六年可能在彌補這個"洞")
但是未來兩年以後, 愛三 AH64 UH60 P-3的運交結束,
我認為台灣的國防採購經費壓力會有顯著的減緩
(下一階段已經公開的大規模採購案應該會是F-16升級案-->52億美金
和天弓三型採購案-->748億台幣, 約28億美金)
但這兩個採購案依照目前公開的新聞來看都會拖個十年執行 所以年度開銷應該會比較低
因為過去幾年等於是在6~8年內花了120~130億對美採購新主戰裝備
只是問題除了經費以外, 最大在於建軍需求
台灣真的要自己搞國產萬噸大型驅逐艦嗎? 如果還要加上天弓上艦這個工程也太浩大了巴
(我覺得爭取美國授權生產勃克級/或是出售二手勃克級
或是爭取技術轉移在台灣生產F100及小神盾會比較穩當一些)
另外就是3000頓雙體巡防艦, 這也太"前衛"了 |
Edited by - Reinherd Von Hwang提督 on 09/22/2014 06:05:35 |
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hcwu
路人甲乙丙
1146 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2014 : 07:13:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Reinherd Von Hwang提督
這個消息有一點驚人, 所以看看就好 別當真
要等海軍正式出來回應或是有進一步的公開消息
我稍微英翻中一下
消息是說, 台灣海軍預計在今年11月對外公布一個巨大的20年建軍採購計畫
但在9月19日的漢光30號演習透露一部分給記者
而這個造艦計畫要在20年內用國產艦艇取代台灣所有主力作戰艦艇(主要是外購艦)
因為美國可能會越來越難出售主戰裝備給台灣
而目前洩漏出來的計畫規模如下:
1.四艘萬噸級大型驅逐艦 (取代四艘基隆級)
2.10~15艘 3000噸雙體巡防艦 (取代現有的22艘成功 康定 濟陽)
3.未定數量的登陸艦取代現有的11艘LSD和LST
4.4~8艘1000~3000噸柴電潛艦 (預計先造四艘, 如果未來預算夠會增購到8艘
取代荷蘭製的劍龍級潛艦)
而這四個造艦計畫會由台灣本地的造船業者主導, 美國廠商可以參與共應次系統
唯一例外是潛艦案, 美國廠商可以和台灣造船業者搭檔參與投標
(海軍官員說:如果美商來的夠早, 來太晚也不行了)
而國產的雙體巡防艦會裝上3D相位陣列雷達和垂直發射系統
如果美國不願意提共SM-3防空飛彈,海軍就會找中科院以天弓飛彈系統開發艦載防空飛彈
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Taiwan Previews Major Naval Acquisition Plan
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140920/DEFREG03/309200024/Taiwan-Previews-Major-Naval-Acquisition-Plan
TAIPEI — Taiwan’s Navy plans to build new destroyers, frigates, corvettes and submarines in a 20-year force modernization program that will replace all the US and French-built warships in the fleet.
Details of the program will be released in November, but Navy officials provided some information about the scope of the massive build plan during the live-fire field training event during the annual Han Kuang exercises off the east coast of Taiwan on Sept. 17.
None of the new ships and submarines will be built by the US. Instead, Taiwan will rely on the combined efforts of its Ocean Industries Research and Development Center for design, the Taiwanese military-run Chungshan Institute of Science and Technology (CSIST) for systems and integration, and the Taiwan-based China Shipbuilding Industry Corp. for construction.
The Navy hopes to finish the design and development stage in five to 10 years, depending on the budget and complexity of each vessel, a Navy official said.
Taiwan will seek Western assistance on various components and systems, but their determination to build the ships in Taiwan remains firm.
Producing them in Taiwan creates jobs and skills, reduces reliance on restrictive US government export policies, and reduces corruption, the Navy official said. US and European defense companies have a history of hiring local agents with ties to organized crime and Beijing’s intelligence apparatus.
This year’s Han Kuang exercise demonstrated a confidence in Taiwan’s Navy to counter China’s growing naval prowess. The exercise, part of the Han Kuang’s joint interdiction phase, included ships and aircraft organized into task groups. Every class of warship participated, from the stealthy Kuang Hua 6 fast-attack missile boat to the Kidd-class destroyers. Aircraft included S-70C helicopters, P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft and F-16 fighter aircraft.
Various drills and operations were carried out based on the exercise scenario, including live firing of an anti-ship rocket, depth charges, ship guns and Phalanx close-in weapon systems. “The [field training exercise] reveals not only the superior combat capability of the new-generation naval and Air Force platforms, but also the great training achievements of men and women involved in the exercise,” a Navy spokesperson said. The exercise tests combat effectiveness in force preservation, high sea maneuver and joint interdiction, he said.
Over the next 20 years, the Navy must replace these systems as they age, and there are no guarantees Taiwan’s reliance on US-made weapon systems will continue as Beijing’s influence on Washington grows. Taiwan’s three classes of frigates — Perry, Knox and La Fayette — and the Kidd-class destroyers, will need to be replaced, Navy officials said during the exercise.
The Navy will introduce the plan to the public in November for local build programs for four 10,000-ton destroyers, 10 to 15 3,000-ton catamaran frigates, amphibious transport docks to replace 11 dock landing ships and tank landing ships, and four-to-eight diesel 1,200-3,000-ton submarines to replace two Dutch-built submarines.
US companies will still be allowed to participate in the supply of many systems, Navy officials said, but reliance on local companies will be the focus. The Indigenous Defense Submarine program is the only possible exception. US and European companies can partner with Taiwan on the program, “if they come in early enough,” a Navy official said. “There will be four subs initially, perhaps eight if the budget is there.”
The local build catamarans will be outfitted with 3D phased-array radar and vertical launch missiles. If the US cannot supply the RIM-161 Standard Missile 3 air defense missile system, the Navy will commission CSIST to build a missile system based on the Tien Kung (Sky Bow) air defense missile system. CSIST also builds the Hsiung Feng (Brave Wind) anti-ship missile family, Tien Chien (Sky Sword) air defense missile family, and the new land-attack cruise missile.
Taiwan’s local build experience already includes eight Perry-class frigates (Cheng Kung-class), 31 170-ton Kuang Hua 6 fast-attack missile boats armed with Hsiung Feng 2 missiles, 11 500-ton Ching Chiang-class missile patrol boats armed with ramjet-powered supersonic Hsiung Feng 3 missiles, and is building 12 600-ton Hsun Hai-class (Sea Swift-class) corvettes also armed with the Hsiung Feng 3.
The Navy’s build program will face hurdles from budget declines in coming years. The military’s finances will be put to the test as it reduces personnel and implements an all-volunteer force. ■
而這四個造艦計畫會由台灣本地的造船業者主導, 美國廠商可以參與共應次系統
唯一例外是潛艦案, 美國廠商可以和台灣造船業者搭檔參與投標
(海軍官員說:如果美商來的夠早, 來太晚也不行了)?
潛艦的紅色裝備除了美國提供還有其他國家嗎? |
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MistOfWar
路人甲乙丙
USA
1644 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2014 : 12:59:19
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----> 1.四艘萬噸級大型驅逐艦 (取代四艘基隆級)
----> 2.10~15艘 3000噸雙體巡防艦 (取代現有的22艘成功 康定 濟陽)
不知這樣搭配的想法是什麼？
首先雙體船就吃水淺， 艦體聲納效果已經不見得好， 雙體船又追求高速， 這會近一步降低艦體聲納的效果。
成功，康定，濟陽基本都是反潛艦， 拿雙體船來“取代”的意思， 是台灣海軍不考慮水面反潛了？
再來， 四艘萬噸大型驅逐艦的航速應該是趕不上3000噸雙體船的， 換句話說台灣海軍也不打算繼續“高低配”(例如這次演習是紀德+其他小船的編隊)， 而是讓四艘萬噸大驅當“偵搜+指管中心”， 其他幾十艘雙體船則擔任“拳頭”？
可是， 同時設計與建造兩種主戰艦艇， 真會比較便宜嗎？ 若同樣14-19艘主戰艦艇的錢， 可以換成12-16艘“架構一樣”的西班牙小神盾， 會不會比較好？
現在各國6000-7000噸的船(如F-100小神盾， Type-45)， 基本防空反潛都很優秀， 這種噸位應該很適合台灣， 可是這個新聞剛好相反， 是萬噸船+3000噸船.... |
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dasha
版主
41991 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2014 : 14:05:39
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搞不好登陸艦的案子與作戰艦有關,類似美國LCS這種兼具運輸能力的搞法......
天弓系統要裝上LCS等級大小的船,難度高,萬噸船是比較有可能的.如果不強求搶灘能力,只是當作運輸船用,歐美也是有些兼具運輸能力的設計......
其實這最重要的目的是宣示,如果能比照當年加速買到某些東西,那是好事,買不到就真的從車輪自己重新發明吧...... |
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xc091832
路人甲乙丙
797 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2014 : 14:20:33
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quote:
Originally posted by MistOfWar
----> 1.四艘萬噸級大型驅逐艦 (取代四艘基隆級)
----> 2.10~15艘 3000噸雙體巡防艦 (取代現有的22艘成功 康定 濟陽)
不知這樣搭配的想法是什麼？
首先雙體船就吃水淺， 艦體聲納效果已經不見得好， 雙體船又追求高速， 這會近一步降低艦體聲納的效果。
成功，康定，濟陽基本都是反潛艦， 拿雙體船來“取代”的意思， 是台灣海軍不考慮水面反潛了？
再來， 四艘萬噸大型驅逐艦的航速應該是趕不上3000噸雙體船的， 換句話說台灣海軍也不打算繼續“高低配”(例如這次演習是紀德+其他小船的編隊)， 而是讓四艘萬噸大驅當“偵搜+指管中心”， 其他幾十艘雙體船則擔任“拳頭”？
可是， 同時設計與建造兩種主戰艦艇， 真會比較便宜嗎？ 若同樣14-19艘主戰艦艇的錢， 可以換成12-16艘“架構一樣”的西班牙小神盾， 會不會比較好？
現在各國6000-7000噸的船(如F-100小神盾， Type-45)， 基本防空反潛都很優秀， 這種噸位應該很適合台灣， 可是這個新聞剛好相反， 是萬噸船+3000噸船....
如果是四艘基準排水量6000噸級的小神盾(F-100似乎有雷達效能過剩的問題？)搭配10~15艘4000噸級的巡防艦不知如何，4000噸級可以參考日本秋月級與25DD搭配減少預算支出
此報導完全沒提到2000噸的二級艦，以19艘來看，1:1替換仍舊不夠，剩餘應該要由二級艦來彌補空缺吧？
quote:
Originally posted by dasha
搞不好登陸艦的案子與作戰艦有關,類似美國LCS這種兼具運輸能力的搞法......
天弓系統要裝上LCS等級大小的船,難度高,萬噸船是比較有可能的.如果不強求搶灘能力,只是當作運輸船用,歐美也是有些兼具運輸能力的設計......
其實這最重要的目的是宣示,如果能比照當年加速買到某些東西,那是好事,買不到就真的從車輪自己重新發明吧......
登陸艦若不要求搶灘能力，使用高速雙體船泊或可大量減少支出，畢竟可直接以民用船泊名義向外國爭取技轉，也能取代錦江做為千噸巡邏艦 |
Edited by - xc091832 on 09/22/2014 14:26:38 |
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ASMP
路人甲乙丙
1396 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2014 : 20:35:51
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同樣是來自防衛新聞，裡面提到美國願意提供給台灣替換鷹式的3個選項，包括鷹式21、NASAMS（陸射AIM-120）和THAAD，前面兩者可以理解，畢竟之前或多或少都有聽到風聲，但是THAAD就讓人覺得匪夷所思，因為這和鷹式的等級迥然不同。
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140915/DEFREG03/309150036/Taiwan-Retires-Hawk-Missiles?odyssey=mod_sectionstories
TAIPEI — Taiwan will begin retiring its Hawk surface-to-air missile (SAM) system in 2015 as production of the new Tien Kung 3 (Sky Bow) SAM system ramps up, a Ministry of National Defense (MND) source said.
The Tien Kung 3 is a long-range SAM system capable of striking cruise missiles, air-breathing threats and tactical ballistic missiles. Plans are to retire all MIM-23 Hawk SAM systems by 2017.
A Taiwan defense industry source said the US gave them three options to replace the Hawks: the Hawk 21 upgrade program, the Norwegian Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile System (NASAMS), and the Terminal High-Altitude Area Defense System (THAAD). Instead of a foreign system, Taiwan chose the indigenous Tien Kung 3.
Taiwan’s decision surprised many in the US defense industry. The three options were advanced with suitable maintenance and training programs.
The Hawk 21, with a new 3D AN/MPQ-64 Sentinel radar, eliminated the older pulse acquisition radar and continuous wave acquisition radar. NASAMS, or the surface-launched advanced medium-range air-to-air missile (AMRAAM), takes the air-to-air AIM-120 AMRAAM and marries it to a low-altitude surveillance radar.
MND officials said THAAD was too expensive and too similar to the Patriot Advanced Capability-3 missile system already sold to Taiwan.
Washington’s refusal to sell Taipei cutting-edge weapons, in an effort to placate Beijing, has spurred Taiwan’s development of indigenous weapons. So far, the US has refused to sell Taiwan new F-16C/D fighter aircraft, diesel submarines and the Aegis combat system with Arleigh Burke-class destroyers.
Part of Taiwan’s motivation to develop a strong defense manufacturing capability began with the 1972 Shanghai joint communiqué between China and the US. Also referred to as the “first communiqué,” the US agreed to withdraw all US military forces from Taiwan, which occurred in 1979 with the closure of the US-Taiwan Defense Command.
The third communiqué, in 1982, further solidified Taiwan’s determination to develop indigenous systems. In the communiqué, the US agreed “that its arms sales to Taiwan will not exceed, either in qualitative or in quantitative terms, the level of those supplied in recent years since the establishment of diplomatic relations between the United States and China, and that it intends gradually to reduce its sale of arms to Taiwan, leading, over a period of time, to a final resolution.”
In response, the MND began developing the Tien Kung SAM, Indigenous Defense Fighter aircraft, Tien Chien (Sky Sword) air-to-air missiles, Hsiung Feng (Brave Wind) anti-ship missile, and the Wan Chien (Ten Thousand Swords) joint standoff missile. Taiwan’s new land-attack cruise missile, the 600-kilometer Hsiung Feng 2E, is in production and 245 are planned, the MND source said.
Taiwan has gone through the motions of placating the US with procurements of new systems and upgrades, but trust is fading as China and the US grow closer on economics, trade, politics and diplomacy.
Taiwan bought the Hawks in the 1960s to supplement its MIM-14 Nike Hercules SAM systems and over the years Hawk upgrades and sales continued. In 1991, the US sold Taiwan the product improvement plan under Hawk Phase III for $170 million. In 2000, the US sold 162 Hawk missiles for $106 million.
The MND source said the Army now has 16 Hawk batteries. Each battery has six launchers and each launcher carries three missiles.
The majority of the batteries are along the west coast facing China, with one battery on Penghu Island off Taiwan’s southwest coast and the eastern coast has a battery for each city: Suao, Hualien and Taitung. There are three batteries protecting Taipei and two protecting the southern city of Kaohsiung.
The Tien Kung family of air defense missiles began as a platform to carry nuclear warheads, but the US pressured Taiwan to kill the nuclear weapon program in the 1980s. The Tien Kung was then reoriented to fulfill the air defense requirement.
“The Tien Kung 1 is mobile, but dependent on the Chang Bei [Long White] phased-array radar, which is stationary,” the MND source said.
There are six Tien Kung 1 bases around the island. The 150-kilometer range Tien Kung 2 is silo-based with several locations around the island and one each on Penghu Island and Dongyin Island (near Matsu Island). The Tien Kung 3 has a 200-kilometer-plus range and uses the same basic design as the Tien Kung 2 missile, but with lighter composite materials.
The silo-based Tien Kung 2 is also vulnerable to air attack and the Tien Kung 3 uses a radar more similar to the Patriot system that allows the system to “shoot and scoot,” the MND source said.
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xc091832
路人甲乙丙
797 Posts |
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stroll
路人甲乙丙
Taiwan
821 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2014 : 00:29:14
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守勢海軍的話,大概是類似205型那樣?
其實我還比較擔心馬上就練等千噸級大潛艦,大丈夫? (看看西班牙前陣子搞得飛機)
我寧可先從205這種500噸級先練底子功,戰力不如海虎級但是起碼換得掉海獅級
等500噸級的生產跟運用技術確定了再挑戰千噸級 |
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Reinherd Von Hwang提督
我是老鳥
USA
9628 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2014 : 05:44:24
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鷹式21和NASAMS如果我是國軍我也不會買
鷹式21的射程和接戰能力還是遜於國產的天弓飛彈
NASAMS是挪威的武器, 能不能克服政治問題引進也是問題
(並且這還只是類似陸射麻雀/天劍二的點防禦武器而非真正的區域防空飛彈)
但是THAAD我覺得台灣最好要採購
重點不再於本土防衛作戰, 而是當作台美軍事合作政治手段了
不過這玩意政治問題也不小
台灣一旦採購THAAD 基本上就等於是加入美國的飛彈防禦體系
要協助攔截飛往美國的長程/洲際彈道飛彈
這中共肯定要跳腳到極點
quote:
Originally posted by ASMP
同樣是來自防衛新聞，裡面提到美國願意提供給台灣替換鷹式的3個選項，包括鷹式21、NASAMS（陸射AIM-120）和THAAD，前面兩者可以理解，畢竟之前或多或少都有聽到風聲，但是THAAD就讓人覺得匪夷所思，因為這和鷹式的等級迥然不同。
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140915/DEFREG03/309150036/Taiwan-Retires-Hawk-Missiles?odyssey=mod_sectionstories
TAIPEI — Taiwan will begin retiring its Hawk surface-to-air missile (SAM) system in 2015 as production of the new Tien Kung 3 (Sky Bow) SAM system ramps up, a Ministry of National Defense (MND) source said.
The Tien Kung 3 is a long-range SAM system capable of striking cruise missiles, air-breathing threats and tactical ballistic missiles. Plans are to retire all MIM-23 Hawk SAM systems by 2017.
A Taiwan defense industry source said the US gave them three options to replace the Hawks: the Hawk 21 upgrade program, the Norwegian Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile System (NASAMS), and the Terminal High-Altitude Area Defense System (THAAD). Instead of a foreign system, Taiwan chose the indigenous Tien Kung 3.
Taiwan’s decision surprised many in the US defense industry. The three options were advanced with suitable maintenance and training programs.
The Hawk 21, with a new 3D AN/MPQ-64 Sentinel radar, eliminated the older pulse acquisition radar and continuous wave acquisition radar. NASAMS, or the surface-launched advanced medium-range air-to-air missile (AMRAAM), takes the air-to-air AIM-120 AMRAAM and marries it to a low-altitude surveillance radar.
MND officials said THAAD was too expensive and too similar to the Patriot Advanced Capability-3 missile system already sold to Taiwan.
Washington’s refusal to sell Taipei cutting-edge weapons, in an effort to placate Beijing, has spurred Taiwan’s development of indigenous weapons. So far, the US has refused to sell Taiwan new F-16C/D fighter aircraft, diesel submarines and the Aegis combat system with Arleigh Burke-class destroyers.
Part of Taiwan’s motivation to develop a strong defense manufacturing capability began with the 1972 Shanghai joint communique between China and the US. Also referred to as the “first communique,” the US agreed to withdraw all US military forces from Taiwan, which occurred in 1979 with the closure of the US-Taiwan Defense Command.
The third communique, in 1982, further solidified Taiwan’s determination to develop indigenous systems. In the communique, the US agreed “that its arms sales to Taiwan will not exceed, either in qualitative or in quantitative terms, the level of those supplied in recent years since the establishment of diplomatic relations between the United States and China, and that it intends gradually to reduce its sale of arms to Taiwan, leading, over a period of time, to a final resolution.”
In response, the MND began developing the Tien Kung SAM, Indigenous Defense Fighter aircraft, Tien Chien (Sky Sword) air-to-air missiles, Hsiung Feng (Brave Wind) anti-ship missile, and the Wan Chien (Ten Thousand Swords) joint standoff missile. Taiwan’s new land-attack cruise missile, the 600-kilometer Hsiung Feng 2E, is in production and 245 are planned, the MND source said.
Taiwan has gone through the motions of placating the US with procurements of new systems and upgrades, but trust is fading as China and the US grow closer on economics, trade, politics and diplomacy.
Taiwan bought the Hawks in the 1960s to supplement its MIM-14 Nike Hercules SAM systems and over the years Hawk upgrades and sales continued. In 1991, the US sold Taiwan the product improvement plan under Hawk Phase III for $170 million. In 2000, the US sold 162 Hawk missiles for $106 million.
The MND source said the Army now has 16 Hawk batteries. Each battery has six launchers and each launcher carries three missiles.
The majority of the batteries are along the west coast facing China, with one battery on Penghu Island off Taiwan’s southwest coast and the eastern coast has a battery for each city: Suao, Hualien and Taitung. There are three batteries protecting Taipei and two protecting the southern city of Kaohsiung.
The Tien Kung family of air defense missiles began as a platform to carry nuclear warheads, but the US pressured Taiwan to kill the nuclear weapon program in the 1980s. The Tien Kung was then reoriented to fulfill the air defense requirement.
“The Tien Kung 1 is mobile, but dependent on the Chang Bei [Long White] phased-array radar, which is stationary,” the MND source said.
There are six Tien Kung 1 bases around the island. The 150-kilometer range Tien Kung 2 is silo-based with several locations around the island and one each on Penghu Island and Dongyin Island (near Matsu Island). The Tien Kung 3 has a 200-kilometer-plus range and uses the same basic design as the Tien Kung 2 missile, but with lighter composite materials.
The silo-based Tien Kung 2 is also vulnerable to air attack and the Tien Kung 3 uses a radar more similar to the Patriot system that allows the system to “shoot and scoot,” the MND source said.
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Reinherd Von Hwang提督
我是老鳥
USA
9628 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2014 : 05:52:27
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quote:
Originally posted by stroll
守勢海軍的話,大概是類似205型那樣?
其實我還比較擔心馬上就練等千噸級大潛艦,大丈夫? (看看西班牙前陣子搞得飛機)
我寧可先從205這種500噸級先練底子功,戰力不如海虎級但是起碼換得掉海獅級
等500噸級的生產跟運用技術確定了再挑戰千噸級
我認為要看狀況
如果是美國沒有提供技術轉移
那最好就是從100~500噸的小潛艇開始練手 (像伊朗那樣)
但是如果美國願意提供技術轉移
那最好是直接練大洋潛艦
因為美國不太可能提供台灣小潛艦技術
只可能提供台灣白魚級的技術 , 到時候開發小潛艦還要再繞一大圈
中共當初也是由於蘇聯提供W級潛艦技術, 一開始就生產千噸中型潛艦.
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stroll
路人甲乙丙
Taiwan
821 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2014 : 09:24:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Reinherd Von Hwang提督
我認為要看狀況
如果是美國沒有提供技術轉移
那最好就是從100~500噸的小潛艇開始練手 (像伊朗那樣)
但是如果美國願意提供技術轉移
那最好是直接練大洋潛艦
因為美國不太可能提供台灣小潛艦技術
只可能提供台灣白魚級的技術 , 到時候開發小潛艦還要再繞一大圈
中共當初也是由於蘇聯提供W級潛艦技術, 一開始就生產千噸中型潛艦.
有米國大哥後台罩,底子有根基才能馬上玩大台的
沒有米國大哥罩,直接升等大台的,只會摔死在糞坑 |
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ALPHONSE
路人甲乙丙
USA
2156 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2014 : 15:53:56
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如果拿現在的流行語來說
台灣也要玩大造了
一萬噸級…現在不能用巡洋艦的話就該考慮用重驅逐艦？ |
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ki1
我是老鳥
6111 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2014 : 19:22:58
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quote:
Originally posted by MistOfWar
可是， 同時設計與建造兩種主戰艦艇， 真會比較便宜嗎？ 若同樣14-19艘主戰艦艇的錢， 可以換成12-16艘“架構一樣”的西班牙小神盾， 會不會比較好？
現在各國6000-7000噸的船(如F-100小神盾， Type-45)， 基本防空反潛都很優秀， 這種噸位應該很適合台灣， 可是這個新聞剛好相反， 是萬噸船+3000噸船....
或許是反彈道飛彈等等的原因?
6~7千噸的在這方面比較困難,對於以後的低rcs機也是萬噸級的比較輕鬆
現在6千噸級和三千噸級在防空上也沒有本質上的差別了
(例如可畏級就已經可以搭載paams了)
而雙體在這方面說不定更有利 |
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GMM
路人甲乙丙
3333 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2014 : 19:31:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Reinherd Von Hwang提督
quote:
Originally posted by stroll
守勢海軍的話,大概是類似205型那樣?
其實我還比較擔心馬上就練等千噸級大潛艦,大丈夫? (看看西班牙前陣子搞得飛機)
我寧可先從205這種500噸級先練底子功,戰力不如海虎級但是起碼換得掉海獅級
等500噸級的生產跟運用技術確定了再挑戰千噸級
我認為要看狀況
如果是美國沒有提供技術轉移
那最好就是從100~500噸的小潛艇開始練手 (像伊朗那樣)
但是如果美國願意提供技術轉移
那最好是直接練大洋潛艦
因為美國不太可能提供台灣小潛艦技術
只可能提供台灣白魚級的技術 , 到時候開發小潛艦還要再繞一大圈
中共當初也是由於蘇聯提供W級潛艦技術, 一開始就生產千噸中型潛艦.
那麼小的船經驗要搬到大船上也用處很有限
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Reinherd Von Hwang提督
我是老鳥
USA
9628 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2014 : 07:51:38
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quote:
Originally posted by ki1
quote:
Originally posted by MistOfWar
可是， 同時設計與建造兩種主戰艦艇， 真會比較便宜嗎？ 若同樣14-19艘主戰艦艇的錢， 可以換成12-16艘“架構一樣”的西班牙小神盾， 會不會比較好？
現在各國6000-7000噸的船(如F-100小神盾， Type-45)， 基本防空反潛都很優秀， 這種噸位應該很適合台灣， 可是這個新聞剛好相反， 是萬噸船+3000噸船....
或許是反彈道飛彈等等的原因?
6~7千噸的在這方面比較困難,對於以後的低rcs機也是萬噸級的比較輕鬆
現在6千噸級和三千噸級在防空上也沒有本質上的差別了
(例如可畏級就已經可以搭載paams了)
而雙體在這方面說不定更有利
講講而已吧
別太認真比較好
就像是當出迅海計畫剛剛出爐時不也是謠言滿天飛
說這是800噸的巡邏艦, 結果下水後才確定只有500噸
我覺得這種新聞只能確定"有這個計畫"
海軍有計畫要推動巡防艦 驅逐艦 潛艦 登陸艦的國造案
但是所有計畫細節通通不能認真看待
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陸戰屋小步兵
版主
7782 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2014 : 11:10:31
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quote:
我認為台灣應該要學這個觀念
但是台灣學這個觀念不能完全照抄美國 因為台灣的海陸沒有自己的空中機隊
只能有一搭沒一搭的靠陸航掩護支援
所以如果台灣想搞MEU 我認為陸上火力要增強
例如每個步兵連要有三門81 迫擊砲 (由美軍現行編制的8門增加到12門)
除了有一個155榴砲連外(6門155mm榴彈砲) 還要有4~6門120mm迫擊砲
並且要有一個滿編的戰車連 (可以用M60A3戰車或是未來可能會有的雲豹105mm突擊炮)
你講的這些我十幾年前退伍時幾乎都有了，但只有接戰備時才有，後勤還算可以，因為用一整個師(旅)的力量去支援這個營，所以戰力勉強過關，我看到的問題是，週休二日之後，士兵的訓練度下降的問題。官兵不是不能休假，旦假期怎麼排是個重點，我當時就有在想乾脆義務役取消週休二日，但雖短役期增強訓練強度的方式去彌補。不過說這個都無啥意義了，因為徵兵制都要廢了。
讀書不成先用劍 用劍無它A讀書 讀書用劍兩無成 落魄江湖它W負 |
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dasha
版主
41991 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2014 : 11:40:29
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quote:
Originally posted by xc091832
F-100似乎有雷達效能過剩的問題？
西班牙那個是指船體太小,能裝的飛彈數量少於作戰系統處理目標量,大材小用,可以的話船大一點多裝點飛彈比較划算,不然就不要用那麼高級的系統......而還要再縮,挪威南森那種雷達不能同時開的問題,又是大毛病......
小中大潛艦有很多地方不同,比較像民用車與MBT的差別,能通用的很少,大傢伙魚雷能再裝填,衛浴設備與廚房都要有,小傢伙可是不可再裝填與帶個糞桶當廁所,吃飯?乾糧或微波食品......雖然作戰上能互補,技術上差距很多. |
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GMM
路人甲乙丙
3333 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2014 : 14:36:48
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我也是想到廁所跟潛艇大小的問題
小船喝完的空寶特瓶加水桶套塑膠袋就解決
半夜偷偷往外丟就好
而且也潛不久跑不遠
大船還要怕沖水會不會搞沈船差太多
500噸看看能不能搞出德國206級
不過人家經驗豐富才能濃縮成這樣
台美"大"船用久了要生出這等級的東西應該困難不少 |
Edited by - GMM on 09/24/2014 14:49:55 |
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stroll
路人甲乙丙
Taiwan
821 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2014 : 15:14:26
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不是經驗豐富才能濃縮成這樣,而是不打算跑很遠打遠征戰所以濃縮成這樣
依朗那自製潛艇也不過300噸,只有兩管無再裝填魚雷,廁所也的確是簡易到極點 |
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GMM
路人甲乙丙
3333 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2014 : 15:46:27
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| 那還不如發展自走魚雷發射載具 |
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kumachan
路人甲乙丙
Taiwan
3832 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2014 : 19:44:57
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quote:
Originally posted by stroll
依朗那自製潛艇也不過300噸,只有兩管無再裝填魚雷,廁所也的確是簡易到極點
伊朗那個Ghadir級是120噸而已.
那有點像放大一點的特戰潛艇.
我國的標準應該是206型噸位以上.
500噸做近海潛艦已經很夠了,就算以後要再做或外購大型遠洋的.
小型的也是有用處...西北部海域,因為台海水深才幾十米,寬才100多公里.
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Edited by - kumachan on 09/24/2014 19:58:17 |
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kumachan
路人甲乙丙
Taiwan
3832 Posts |
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Luke-Skywalker
我是老鳥
Taiwan
26649 Posts |
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小毛
我是老鳥
Taiwan
11195 Posts |
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GMM
路人甲乙丙
3333 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2014 : 09:54:39
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不 應該是喊美國賣的東西是劣質品
應該美國派人來台下跪，把東西收回去
吞下去應該是免了 |
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標題 |
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台灣軍事新聞評論專欄研析2014-3
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