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Luke-Skywalker
我是老鳥
Taiwan
26649 Posts |
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dasha
版主
41804 Posts |
 Posted - 12/17/2005 : 22:48:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke-Skywalker
一篇關於紀德級飛彈驅逐艦的評論文章：
http://taiwanbbs.org/cgi/index.pl?b=mil,s=165,m=1104932184#r165
缺制海思維 買神盾艦也沒用
說得很好.我們現在的作戰方式是把海軍當成台灣的外圍防禦基地使用;制海方式的思考在弱勢時是把台灣當餌吸引敵人海軍自投羅網,強勢時則是以海軍的主動性活動牽制敵人的制海兵力.弱勢時的艦隊佈置方式與現在的作戰方式外觀上很類似,但是從某些細節可以看出核心觀念的差異.
不過,即使是沒有制海思維的作戰模式,軍艦帶來的作戰縱深改變,依然不是多買陸基武器可以彌補的. |
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陸戰屋小步兵
版主
7782 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2005 : 01:15:43
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李傑的想法與這篇文很相近
2001年2月去海軍月會出公差充人數
聽計畫署長簡報過
大致上是編成二個作戰支隊
細節既不清楚了
領兵一隊衛南疆
步兵工兵屯田兵 |
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鳥鵬
新手上路
125 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2005 : 11:15:21
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| 在下昨天看到新聞,居然有人把退役的史艦(靶船)拿來跟已經戰力強化過的紀德級來比較真是夠了. |
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Luke-Skywalker
我是老鳥
Taiwan
26649 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2005 : 17:10:47
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quote:
Originally posted by 鳥鵬
在下昨天看到新聞,居然有人把退役的史艦(靶船)拿來跟已經戰力強化過的紀德級來比較真是夠了.
自由？東森？中時？聯合？蘋果？
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May the Force be with you
President of IMFS(International Military Fans Society) |
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偷兒
路人甲乙丙
3592 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2005 : 17:21:46
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電視新聞...
幾乎都有...
也因此殺傷力驚人....
有片為證嘛~~~STO
這不是動畫!!!這不是動畫!!!
你將會看到時光的眼眾荍Q者將會是誰呢???
KeRo KeRo KeRo KeRoKeRo KeRo~~~ |
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Luke-Skywalker
我是老鳥
Taiwan
26649 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2005 : 17:30:43
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quote:
Originally posted by pcepan
電視新聞...
幾乎都有...
也因此殺傷力驚人....
有片為證嘛~~~STO
網路上我只找到TVBS的.........
此外，今天去看紀德艦的首艦回來了。紀德級雖然改名為基隆級，發現艦上的船鐘、技令等一堆堆東東，都還沒改過來，要改的話要再花$$。
嗯......應該是基隆艦駐防基隆(台北縣)，蘇澳艦駐防蘇澳(宜蘭縣)，左營艦駐防左營(高雄縣)，馬公艦駐防馬公(澎湖縣)，不對！這樣應改名成台北艦、宜蘭艦、高雄艦、澎湖艦.........
軍購不燒錢燒什麼！不......應該是燒鑽石.........
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May the Force be with you
President of IMFS(International Military Fans Society) |
Edited by - Luke-Skywalker on 12/18/2005 22:12:11 |
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星艦戰將
路人甲乙丙
Taiwan
1886 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 09:51:16
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看基德級(紀德級)的艦身呎吋,就像先前在下聽說的一樣,若給武夷艦進行對此艦的油彈補給任務,必定吃不消﹗(因武夷艦對紀德級的補給型態已趨飽和)
若假設此艦給南韓的“忠清大王級”(AOE58)油彈補給艦進行補給,應該可以勝任﹗所以中船是否可跟南韓的各大造船廠師法與合資興建類似“忠清大王級”的油彈補給艦,以因應此一情況﹗
Welcome to MDC force!
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Luke-Skywalker
我是老鳥
Taiwan
26649 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 11:35:55
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僅此一艘的武夷級油彈補給艦在二代艦成軍後，其補給能量已不敷海軍的任務需求，而報載海軍似乎有擬採購大型油彈補給艦的構想，詳見如下則報導：
http://yam.udn.com/yamnews/daily/3048861.shtml
紀德艦今抵台 26億購補給艦
記者盧德允、丁萬鳴／台北報導 12/07 03:35
自美返國的紀德級飛彈驅逐艦「基隆」和「蘇澳」兩艦，據了解今天接近蘇澳外海，將視海象入港，預定九日下午舉行接艦官兵懇親會，十七日周六由陳水扁總統主持成軍典禮。
此外，由於紀德艦的補給需求大，而海軍目前僅有的一艘快速油彈補給艦「武夷」號不敷使用，國防部已經決定投資約廿六億元，籌獲一艘大型油彈補給艦。海軍官員表示，籌獲方式有國艦國造、接收美軍舊艦等，但限於政府財力，重新造艦所費不貲，此一計畫優先順序不高，一直排不上預算期程。根據海軍規劃，若預算情形順利，該艘新油彈補給艦預定明年建案，兩年後服役，新艦尺寸較「武夷號」稍大，滿載噸位在兩萬噸以下，可搭載一萬公噸燃油和一千公噸物資。
「基隆號」和「蘇澳號」經過一個多月航行，今天抵達蘇澳軍港。但兩艦何時進港，海軍秘而不宣，並嚴格保密。
海軍官員解釋，保密是因為確切進港時機要看天候，新船回國，沒有人願意發生一點差錯。二是不希望過度曝光，以免下周六陳總統主持成軍典禮時，已經沒有新聞熱度。但今天已有電視媒體準備租用南方澳漁船，出海「搜捕」紀德艦蹤跡，搶得獨家鏡頭，各電視台的ＳＮＧ車將在蘇澳管制區外制高點，捕捉紀德艦進港的影像。
「基隆」艦舷號一八○一，艦長為陳新發上校，海軍官校七十二年班、國防大學戰爭學院九十一班畢業，前一職務是成功級飛彈巡防艦艦長。「蘇澳」舷號一八○二，艦長沈易德上校，海軍官校七十三年班、國防大學海軍學院九十年班、美國成功艦戰系組合訓練班畢業，曾任成功級子儀軍艦（編號一一○七）艦長；他是親民黨立委沈智慧的弟弟。
紀德艦是海軍耗油最凶的軍艦。根據海軍的戰力規畫，紀德艦將負擔台海最外層防衛任務，一旦兩岸出現軍事衝突危機，紀德艦將部署在東部外海，運用其所搭載的遠距雷達，發揮協調和指揮功能，加強台海防衛的戰術縱深。
軍方人士透露，紀德艦戰時長期滯留外海，無法隨意進港補給，必須靠補給艦提供充分的後勤支援，但海軍唯一的一艘油彈補給艦「武夷號」服役逾十五年，任務早已飽和，無法再支援紀德艦。
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May the Force be with you
President of IMFS(International Military Fans Society) |
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鳥鵬
新手上路
125 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 11:54:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke-Skywalker
quote:
Originally posted by 鳥鵬
在下昨天看到新聞,居然有人把退役的史艦(靶船)拿來跟已經戰力強化過的紀德級來比較真是夠了.
自由？東森？中時？聯合？蘋果？
=========================
May the Force be with you
President of IMFS(International Military Fans Society)
沒記錯....因該是東森的跑馬燈上面的資料. |
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星艦戰將
路人甲乙丙
Taiwan
1886 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 11:55:18
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盼新一代油彈補給艦明年以前能定案,不然吃不消﹗總不能讓我們一直假設用油輪與貨輪來進行補給任務吧﹗
Welcome to MDC force!
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dasha
版主
41804 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 12:24:55
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quote:
Originally posted by 星艦戰將
盼新一代油彈補給艦明年以前能定案,不然吃不消﹗總不能讓我們一直假設用油輪與貨輪來進行補給任務吧﹗
Welcome to MDC force!
希望,但這種案子不能善了......
有建造武夷的經驗,國內廠商當然會爭取;可是海軍對武夷經驗印象很差,該艦問題很多而且廠商是動用政治力壓迫而非修改缺陷驗收,現在會極力迴避. |
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ALPHONSE
路人甲乙丙
USA
2156 Posts |
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Luke-Skywalker
我是老鳥
Taiwan
26649 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 14:26:02
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EMP彈看報導是發展空投彈，和基隆級有啥關係？
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May the Force be with you
President of IMFS(International Military Fans Society) |
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ALPHONSE
路人甲乙丙
USA
2156 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 15:10:50
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個人是認為把EMP彈空投化後研究艦射型對付護航船團(不知可行性)
=ENIGMA= |
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Luke-Skywalker
我是老鳥
Taiwan
26649 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 15:15:19
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自由時報2005年12月17日報導：
http://www.libertytimes.com.tw/2005/new/dec/17/today-fo3.htm
quote:
紀德艦雖是我國現役戰力最強的主戰艦艇，不過近來網路上流傳一張下載自美國海軍官方網站的照片，是在一九八三年三月五日成軍的美國海軍最後一艘史普魯恩斯驅逐艦（DD 997）被當成靶艦擊沈的照片，由於這艘船比我國所採購在一九八二年三月十三日成軍的第四艘馬公艦艦齡還年輕，頗引起網友對我國採購中古軍艦之堅定政策的好奇討論。
在美國海軍網找到的照片：
這艘是USS Hayler(DD 997)
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May the Force be with you
President of IMFS(International Military Fans Society) |
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星艦戰將
路人甲乙丙
Taiwan
1886 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 16:29:04
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quote:
Originally posted by dasha
quote:
Originally posted by 星艦戰將
盼新一代油彈補給艦明年以前能定案,不然吃不消﹗總不能讓我們一直假設用油輪與貨輪來進行補給任務吧﹗
Welcome to MDC force!
希望,但這種案子不能善了......
有建造武夷的經驗,國內廠商當然會爭取;可是海軍對武夷經驗印象很差,該艦問題很多而且廠商是動用政治力壓迫而非修改缺陷驗收,現在會極力迴避.
以武夷艦的例子來看,在下認為此艦又是一個屈於國內外政治壓力下的犧牲者﹗比獵雷艦與忠義計劃一樣淒慘﹗
好羨慕南韓為何不屈於連續的國內外政治壓力及政爭與利益衝突,而能使“國艦國造”計劃能成功發展.......﹗(無言以對)
Welcome to MDC force!
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Edited by - 星艦戰將 on 12/19/2005 16:38:59 |
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dasha
版主
41804 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 16:48:43
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還不是與汽車工業或電影工業的前例相同:客戶不信任廠商的產品!
而且這有一半是廠商的問題:有了政府政策性(減稅與增加類似國外產品關稅)或實質性補助(電影補助金)之後,不思振作而只求利潤,所以產品一直無法被接受...... |
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Kirov
我是老鳥
34263 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 16:57:17
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quote:
Originally posted by dasha
還不是與汽車工業或電影工業的前例相同:客戶不信任廠商的產品!
而且這有一半是廠商的問題:有了政府政策性(減稅與增加類似國外產品關稅)或實質性補助(電影補助金)之後,不思振作而只求利潤,所以產品一直無法被接受......
俺之前一直想說這類問題政府要負絕大部份的責任...
畢竟政府是最能支撐起一個發展之初會一直賠錢的產業...
老共的國防工業也是靠政府不怕『拉肚子』,才能硬撐硬吃下來,維持到今日...
韓國(南韓)的情況也差不多...
但是後來想一想我們一般民間產業在近二十年市場開放後的慘烈狀況(除了汽車與電影外,保險金融業可能是最明顯的吧)...
還真如大俠前輩一針見血的評論一樣,廠商的心態也得負相當程度的責任啊...
───
暴雨梨花釘:
『出必見血,空回不祥;急中之急,暗器之王』 |
Edited by - Kirov on 12/19/2005 16:58:21 |
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Luke-Skywalker
我是老鳥
Taiwan
26649 Posts |
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Luke-Skywalker
我是老鳥
Taiwan
26649 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 01:11:57
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更正：
USS 995 Scott → ROCN 1801 Keelung
USS 993 Kidd → ROCN 1803 Zuoying
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May the Force be with you
President of IMFS(International Military Fans Society) |
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ALPHONSE
路人甲乙丙
USA
2156 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 12:33:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke-Skywalker
自由時報2005年12月17日報導：
http://www.libertytimes.com.tw/2005/new/dec/17/today-fo3.htm
quote:
紀德艦雖是我國現役戰力最強的主戰艦艇，不過近來網路上流傳一張下載自美國海軍官方網站的照片，是在一九八三年三月五日成軍的美國海軍最後一艘史普魯恩斯驅逐艦（DD 997）被當成靶艦擊沈的照片，由於這艘船比我國所採購在一九八二年三月十三日成軍的第四艘馬公艦艦齡還年輕，頗引起網友對我國採購中古軍艦之堅定政策的好奇討論。
在美國海軍網找到的照片：
http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/webphoto/web_041113-N-5319A-001.jpg
這艘是USS Hayler(DD 997)
Vice Admiral Robert W. Hayler, U.S.N.
羅伯特 W. 海勒.
http://www.usshayler.net/Admiralhayler.htm
n June 1942, after the manufacture of torpedoes had started, he was ordered to sea in command of the cruiser USS Honolulu, which he joined two months later in the Aleutian Islands. He remained in Honolulu until March 1944 and participated in some of the heaviest fighting in the Pacific around Guadalcanal. On the night of 30 November 1942, the Honolulu was credited with helping turn back the Japanese forces of Savo Island, and was one of the few heavy U.S. ships which was not damaged. Admiral Hayler received a Navy Cross for this action. On 5 - 6 July 1943, the Honolulu helped support the landings at New Georgia Island, and became engaged with numerically-superior, hostile forces. Admiral Hayler led a column of ships into this action, which became known as the Battle of Kula Gulf. For this, he received a Gold Star in lieu of a second Navy Cross. A week later at the Battle of Kolombangara, the Honolulu again lead the battle, and helped in the destruction of at least four Japanese ships. This time, though, the Honolulu was severely damaged, and had her bow blown off as far back as her forward turret, and also received a torpedo hit in her stern. Fortunately, the torpedo was a dud, and did not explode, although it holed the stern. No one was killed, and the Honolulu returned safely to port. Admiral Hayler received a Silver Star for this action.
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On 25 October 1944, Admiral Hayler was in command of the left flank of our forces at Surigao Strait, and was the first to receive, and return fire, from the advancing enemy ships. Surigao resulted in the annihilation of a large and vital portion of the Japanese Fleet.
(簡化)參與1942年塔薩法隆加海戰(日方稱隆加灣夜戰,ю⑦ヮ沖夜戦)
遭遇田中頼三少將的第二水雷戰隊組成的"東京快遞"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tassafaronga
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%AB%E3%83%B3%E3%82%AC%E6%B2%96%E5%A4%9C%E6%88%A6
1944年指揮Cruiser Division Twelve, [ USS Montpelier, USS Denver, USS Columbia, and USS Cleveland]. 在雷伊太海戰中的蘇利高海峽對抗西村和志磨艦隊
=ENIGMA= |
Edited by - ALPHONSE on 12/25/2005 03:33:08 |
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Luke-Skywalker
我是老鳥
Taiwan
26649 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2005 : 01:17:52
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基隆級飛彈驅逐艦
基隆艦(DDG1801；前USS Scott，DDG 995)
蘇澳艦(DDG1802；前USS Callaghan，DDG 994)
左營艦(DDG1803，前USS Kidd，DDG 993)
馬公艦(DDG1805；前USS Chandler，DDG 996)
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May the Force be with you
President of IMFS(International Military Fans Society) |
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ALPHONSE
路人甲乙丙
USA
2156 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2005 : 02:38:06
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Rear Admiral Norman Scott, USN, (1889-1942)
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/pers-us/uspers-s/n-scott.htm
A month later, on 13 November, he was second-in-command during the initial night action of the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. In that wild and brutal fight, Rear Admiral Norman Scott was killed in action when his flagship, the light cruiser Atlanta, was fatally damaged by gunfire and a torpedo. For his "extraordinary heroism and conspicuous intrepidity" in the October and November battles, he was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor.
諾曼.斯考特死於第三次所羅門海戰(USS Atlanta),並受與榮譽勳章
Rear Admiral Daniel J. Callaghan
1890-1942
http://history.navy.mil/danfs/c2/callaghan.htm
Born in San Francisco, Calif., 26 July 1890, Daniel Judson Callaghan graduated from the Naval Academy in 1911. His prewar service included command of Truxtun (Destroyer No. 14), staff duty afloat and ashore, and duty as Naval aide to the President. He commanded San Francisco (CA-38) from May 1941 to May 1942, then served as chief of staff to Commander, South Pacific area and South Pacific Force. Rear Admiral Callaghan was killed in action in the bitter naval Battle of Guadalcanal 13 November 1942 while commanding forces that helped turn back a far stronger Japanese fleet. He was posthumously awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for extraordinary heroism during the action in which he gave his life.
同樣死於第三次所羅門海戰(USS San Francisco),並受與榮譽勳章
Rear Admiral Isaac Campbell Kidd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_C._Kidd
During the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, 7 December 1941, Rear Admiral Kidd was Commander of Battleship Division 1 and Chief of Staff and Aide, Commander, Battleship Battle Force. At the first knowledge of the attack, he rushed to the bridge of Arizona, his flagship, and "courageously discharged his duties as Senior Officer Present Afloat until Arizona blew up from a magazine explosion and a direct bomb hit on the bridge which resulted in the loss of his life."
因為死於12月7日當天(USS Arizona爆炸)獲得榮譽勳章
[老爸Isaac C. Kidd, Jr. 任職 Supreme Allied Commander of NATO's Atlantic Fleet,1999年死於癌症]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_C._Kidd%2C_Jr.
William Eaton Chandler 1835-1917
United States Secretary of the Navy,
Senator from New Hampshire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_E._Chandler
In 1859, he was appointed reporter of the decisions of the supreme court of New Hampshire. He then served in the State house of representatives from 1862-1864 and was the speaker during the last two years.
In 1865, Chandler was appointed by President Abraham Lincoln solicitor and judge advocate general of the Navy Department. Subsequently, he was appointed First Assistant Secretary of the Treasury, until he resigned in 1867.
Chandler returned to New Hampshire and became a newspaper publisher and editor during the 1870s and 1880s. Continuing in politics, he was a member of the State constitutional convention in 1876 and a member of the State house of representatives in 1881.
Chandler was appointed by President Chester Arthur as Secretary of the Navy in 1882 and served until 1885.
As a Republican, he was elected to the United States Senate to fill the vacancy caused by the death of Austin F. Pike and served from June 14, 1887, to March 3, 1889. Subsequently elected for the term beginning March 4, 1889, he was reelected in 1895 and served from June 18, 1889, to March 3, 1901. He was an unsuccessful candidate for renomination. He served as chairman, Committee on Immigration (Fifty-first and Fifty-second Congresses), Committee on Census (Fifty-fourth Congress), Committee on Privileges and Elections (Fifty-fifth and Fifty-sixth Congresses).
Chandler was appointed by President William McKinley as president of the Spanish Claims Treaty Commission 1901-1908.
這一位比較算是"政客"(從事政治活動)
最後可以發現政府網站解說的錯誤:
http://www.gov.tw/PUBLIC/view.php3?id=129609&sub=64&main=GOVNEWS
這批飛彈驅逐艦於一九八○年代初期加入美國海軍艦隊，首艦以一位在珍珠港事件中陣亡於戰鬥艦亞歷桑那號（USS Arizona BB-39）上的戰隊長Isaac C. Kidd少將命名，二號艦可拉漢號（USS Callaghan DDG-994）與三號艦史考特號（USS Scott DDG-995）則是為了紀念在一九四三年底第三次所羅門海戰中陣亡的兩位美國海軍少將。 |
Edited by - ALPHONSE on 12/25/2005 03:06:37 |
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ALPHONSE
路人甲乙丙
USA
2156 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2005 : 03:31:13
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quote:
Originally posted by ALPHONSE
quote:
Originally posted by Luke-Skywalker
自由時報2005年12月17日報導：
http://www.libertytimes.com.tw/2005/new/dec/17/today-fo3.htm
quote:
紀德艦雖是我國現役戰力最強的主戰艦艇，不過近來網路上流傳一張下載自美國海軍官方網站的照片，是在一九八三年三月五日成軍的美國海軍最後一艘史普魯恩斯驅逐艦（DD 997）被當成靶艦擊沈的照片，由於這艘船比我國所採購在一九八二年三月十三日成軍的第四艘馬公艦艦齡還年輕，頗引起網友對我國採購中古軍艦之堅定政策的好奇討論。
在美國海軍網找到的照片：
http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/webphoto/web_041113-N-5319A-001.jpg
這艘是USS Hayler(DD 997)
Vice Admiral Robert W. Hayler, U.S.N.
羅伯特 W. 海勒.
http://www.usshayler.net/Admiralhayler.htm
n June 1942, after the manufacture of torpedoes had started, he was ordered to sea in command of the cruiser USS Honolulu, which he joined two months later in the Aleutian Islands. He remained in Honolulu until March 1944 and participated in some of the heaviest fighting in the Pacific around Guadalcanal. On the night of 30 November 1942, the Honolulu was credited with helping turn back the Japanese forces of Savo Island, and was one of the few heavy U.S. ships which was not damaged. Admiral Hayler received a Navy Cross for this action. On 5 - 6 July 1943, the Honolulu helped support the landings at New Georgia Island, and became engaged with numerically-superior, hostile forces. Admiral Hayler led a column of ships into this action, which became known as the Battle of Kula Gulf. For this, he received a Gold Star in lieu of a second Navy Cross. A week later at the Battle of Kolombangara, the Honolulu again lead the battle, and helped in the destruction of at least four Japanese ships. This time, though, the Honolulu was severely damaged, and had her bow blown off as far back as her forward turret, and also received a torpedo hit in her stern. Fortunately, the torpedo was a dud, and did not explode, although it holed the stern. No one was killed, and the Honolulu returned safely to port. Admiral Hayler received a Silver Star for this action.
....
On 25 October 1944, Admiral Hayler was in command of the left flank of our forces at Surigao Strait, and was the first to receive, and return fire, from the advancing enemy ships. Surigao resulted in the annihilation of a large and vital portion of the Japanese Fleet.
(簡化)參與1942年塔薩法隆加海戰(日方稱隆加灣夜戰,ю⑦ヮ沖夜戦)
遭遇田中頼三少將的第二水雷戰隊組成的"東京快遞"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tassafaronga
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%AB%E3%83%B3%E3%82%AC%E6%B2%96%E5%A4%9C%E6%88%A6
1944年指揮Cruiser Division Twelve, [ USS Montpelier, USS Denver, USS Columbia, and USS Cleveland]. 在雷伊太海戰中的蘇利高海峽對抗西村和志磨艦隊
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