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Captain Sulu
版主
Taiwan
2822 Posts |
 Posted - 07/14/2015 : 14:35:33
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冰島「堪稱」是2008以來，撙節改革走回復甦的資優生
她做了幾項
1.政府接管銀行→等於是有貨幣發行權的政府自己做銀行，至少穩定人心。
2.中期財政穩固方案，包括撙節及增稅！
撙節及增稅！
撙節及增稅！！
撙節及增稅！！！
3.官方無法顧到的銀行體系大量瘦身
4.資本管制→錢來了別走啊
5.決定加入歐元區帶來信用評等改善
6.克朗貶值後觀光、知識經濟出口大好
希臘能學嗎？
不能
你在歐元區就無法資本管制
就無法貶值拼觀光
你已在歐元區怎麼加歐元區
你只能一直撙節一直撙節
┼
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只要身上配刀的，就有自己的執念，一萬個浪士，一萬個皇國，選定了，不換也不回頭，選錯了，就命定，筆直地走向死亡。 |
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小毛
我是老鳥
Taiwan
10742 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2015 : 15:12:01
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希臘問題最有效的解法就是防堵逃漏稅，只要稅收能確實收到，財政漏洞或有補全的一天。台灣可以提供的就是統一發票制度經驗分享，或是欠稅大戶管收。
不過對於政府各機關電腦系統無法連線作資料統合的希臘來說，要抓逃漏稅那就是存粹靠人治....
** 小毛的新幻想空間逐漸復活中(新增3D圖喔).....**
http://lordmrx.pixnet.net/blog
歡迎參觀 |
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cwchang2100
我是老鳥
Cayman Islands
17243 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2015 : 15:31:00
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希臘除了樽節之外,還有要求結構性改革.
一般來說,這個算是中長期最重要的藥方.
經濟學者愛講財政金融措施,不愛講這個.
抓逃漏稅就算其中之一,
其實台灣逃漏稅也很嚴重,要不然國家會有錢得要死.
那些開賓士的攤販,開捷豹的菜肉販,那個不是逃漏稅.
只要規定開百萬名車者,規定要僱一名司機,
住億元豪宅者,規定要僱兩名女僕和一名執事...
那就會降低不少失業率. 
還有那個星期六日開店的新規定,真的是太好了.
下午應該也要開店才對.
每次去南歐,下午還有週末都很麻煩,連街都沒得逛.
這下子應該可以多不少收入.
還有應該規定餐廳下午六點一定要開店,
晚上八九點才開店是搞啥鬼,一吃還要吃到過12點才開心.
這樣早上工作當然沒太大勁囉.
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這些秘密話語來自活著的耶穌，由迪迪摩斯•猶大•多馬記錄。
他說：「任何人發現了這些話的意義，將不會嚐到死亡的滋味。」
多馬福音第1節 |
Edited by - cwchang2100 on 07/14/2015 15:35:37 |
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小毛
我是老鳥
Taiwan
10742 Posts |
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Captain Sulu
版主
Taiwan
2822 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2015 : 15:49:40
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結構性改革
以中國歷史來看，所謂結構性改革，就是改朝換代，上層階級整個洗掉重來，有時候幾個朝代都換不掉，世家政治就從漢末換到唐末
不然就是某個拿到民粹權力的獨裁者，拿權力當推土機把保守分子輾過去
抱歉，我用獨裁者一字，在這裡是中性無貶義，
歷史上出現的現像都肇因於解決某種當下困境，
獨裁者的出現亦是。
暫時用功利主義看法看這事的話，你會覺得齊普拉斯演這戲搞不好在玩水鏡八奇天下籌畫，
還得了錢？還不了錢？誰在乎？
看看能不能亂中搞出什麼新秩序。
┼
─────
只要身上配刀的，就有自己的執念，一萬個浪士，一萬個皇國，選定了，不換也不回頭，選錯了，就命定，筆直地走向死亡。 |
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cwchang2100
我是老鳥
Cayman Islands
17243 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2015 : 15:50:02
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quote:
Originally posted by 小毛
歐洲八九點吃晚餐應該是夏季日照時間較長的關係。有時候晚上快十點天空還是蠻亮的.....
** 小毛的新幻想空間逐漸復活中(新增3D圖喔).....**
http://lordmrx.pixnet.net/blog
歡迎參觀
可是我肚子餓呀...
另外,晚上十點還會亮,應該是緯度較高,或是西歐吧?
我夏天在義大利南部時,記得8點應該就是黑的.
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這些秘密話語來自活著的耶穌，由迪迪摩斯•猶大•多馬記錄。
他說：「任何人發現了這些話的意義，將不會嚐到死亡的滋味。」
多馬福音第1節 |
Edited by - cwchang2100 on 07/14/2015 15:56:40 |
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cwchang2100
我是老鳥
Cayman Islands
17243 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2015 : 16:04:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Captain Sulu
結構性改革
以中國歷史來看，所謂結構性改革，就是改朝換代，上層階級整個洗掉重來，有時候幾個朝代都換不掉，世家政治就從漢末換到唐末
不然就是某個拿到民粹權力的獨裁者，拿權力當推土機把保守分子輾過去
抱歉，我用獨裁者一字，在這裡是中性無貶義，
歷史上出現的現像都肇因於解決某種當下困境，
獨裁者的出現亦是。
暫時用功利主義看法看這事的話，你會覺得齊普拉斯演這戲搞不好在玩水鏡八奇天下籌畫，
還得了錢？還不了錢？誰在乎？
看看能不能亂中搞出什麼新秩序。
┼
─────
只要身上配刀的，就有自己的執念，一萬個浪士，一萬個皇國，選定了，不換也不回頭，選錯了，就命定，筆直地走向死亡。
齊普拉斯這樣搞,其實不知道是意外還是故意?!
一般人是不見棺材不掉淚.
希臘人一直以為沒人會敢將他們踢出歐元區.
所以,一直都很硬,抗拒改革.
齊普拉斯這樣惡搞下,讓希臘人稍稍看到棺材長怎樣.
讓大家知道,是有些人恨不得希臘被踢出去.
所以,國內的反對聲浪會比較小,因為絕大多數的希臘人是不想脫離歐元區.
這樣比較激進的改革才比較容易被接受.
齊普拉斯要是能想這麼遠,那算他厲害.
因為中間有太多無法控制的因素,要冒太多的險.
這個一般人是辦不到的.
台灣也差不多,有些時候就是要讓民眾知道有棺材的存在.
還要讓他們親眼見識一下,要不然是不會覺悟的.
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這些秘密話語來自活著的耶穌，由迪迪摩斯•猶大•多馬記錄。
他說：「任何人發現了這些話的意義，將不會嚐到死亡的滋味。」
多馬福音第1節 |
Edited by - cwchang2100 on 07/14/2015 16:06:27 |
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Captain Sulu
版主
Taiwan
2822 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2015 : 16:43:36
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歐盟的產生就是存在於歷史這個龐大外部記憶體存有歷史演化的基因。
歷史有殘酷的一面，但再進一步詮釋的話，往往不是對錯分明的
於是大家都變和善了
以前德國還不出債來，
法國把整個萊茵河左岸佔下來抵債，
債主逼人逼過頭反被一口，
現在當然不這樣搞了，
連希臘國產民營化基金本來要設在布魯塞爾，
現在也移到雅典去了。
┼
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只要身上配刀的，就有自己的執念，一萬個浪士，一萬個皇國，選定了，不換也不回頭，選錯了，就命定，筆直地走向死亡。 |
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白河子
路人甲乙丙
Taiwan
4531 Posts |
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toga
版主
Tajikistan
12781 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2015 : 19:02:23
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個人決定在今天出脫一半海外基金投資。
此舉是賢是愚，後天便見分曉。
一萌二PAK三聯閃，四代歐風五國潘，十全側衛百戰鷹，成千蟲隼萬國繁。 |
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GMM
路人甲乙丙
3333 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2015 : 19:43:21
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被人倒帳還被人罵
德國還真可憐
同是被民粹搞的灰頭土臉的
聖帝普丁怎麼不趁現在去找梅醬聽吐苦
什麼希臘問題烏克蘭問題迎刃而解
只是媒體會不會拿希特勒史達林的德俄互不侵犯條約來作新聞就不得而之了 |
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張忠石
新手上路
74 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2015 : 21:24:04
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| 前述2009旅歐台人比較南北歐,言北歐肯賺錢愛存錢,南歐肯花錢愛借錢,合併為歐元區後,北歐賺到並存更多錢:南歐花掉並借更多錢 |
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冗丙
版主
Taiwan
16098 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2015 : 07:46:48
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quote:
Originally posted by toga
個人決定在今天出脫一半海外基金投資。
此舉是賢是愚，後天便見分曉。
一萌二PAK三聯閃，四代歐風五國潘，十全側衛百戰鷹，成千蟲隼萬國繁。
小弟只能暗示油價大輻度下跌時，經濟也會下去。
忠義衛飯筒~剽悍吃燒肉~~
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Captain Sulu
版主
Taiwan
2822 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2015 : 11:09:04
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這是指伊朗解禁投產石油嗎？
┼
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只要身上配刀的，就有自己的執念，一萬個浪士，一萬個皇國，選定了，不換也不回頭，選錯了，就命定，筆直地走向死亡。 |
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bloodrose
路人甲乙丙
1744 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2015 : 17:02:18
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quote:
Originally posted by GMM
被人倒帳還被人罵
德國還真可憐
同是被民粹搞的灰頭土臉的
聖帝普丁怎麼不趁現在去找梅醬聽吐苦
什麼希臘問題烏克蘭問題迎刃而解
只是媒體會不會拿希特勒史達林的德俄互不侵犯條約來作新聞就不得而之了
英國幾年前歐債危機天翻地覆時就在笑
德意志的Vierte Reich已經成立了
這下希臘的事情那麼一鬧騰
梅阿姨已經可以和陳為民V,威廉中二世還有老希並列了
http://mypaper.pchome.com.tw/news/bloodrose/
1.中島陽子－值得效忠的暴坊女王
2.艾莉西亞 佛羅倫斯－真正的「成人」
3.愡流 明日香 蘭格蕾－因為LAS（冷靜肯定） |
Edited by - bloodrose on 07/15/2015 17:17:14 |
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ChoshuTripneustes
路人甲乙丙
4706 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2015 : 18:08:48
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| 威廉二世我知道，但陳為民V是誰啊? |
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BlueWhaleMoon
我是老鳥
13032 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2015 : 20:07:13
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http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/07/13/us-eurozone-greece-idUSKBN0P40EO20150713
路透社的新聞 重點是黑體部分的字
就是我所說的 沒有方法可以把希臘踢出歐元區 但是希臘可以自願離開歐元區
Greek PM Tspiras faces party revolt over bailout deal
Greece's leftwing Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras faces a showdown with rebels in his own party on Tuesday furious at his capitulation to German demands for one of the most sweeping austerity packages ever demanded of a euro zone government.
Just hours after a deal that saw Greece surrender much of its sovereignty to outside supervision in return for agreeing to talks on an 86 billion euro ($95 billion) bailout, doubts were already emerging about whether Tsipras would be able to hold his government together.
The terms imposed by international lenders led by Germany in all-night talks at an emergency summit obliged Tsipras to abandon promises of ending austerity.
Instead he must pass legislation to cut pensions, increase value added tax, clamp down on collective bargaining agreements and put in place quasi-automatic spending constraints. In addition, he must set 50 billion euros of public sector assets aside to be sold off under the supervision of foreign lenders and get the whole package through parliament by Wednesday.
Tsipras himself, elected five months ago to end five years of suffocating austerity, said he had "fought a tough battle" and "averted the plan for financial strangulation".
But to get the accord through parliament by Wednesday's deadline, he will have to rely on votes from pro-European opposition parties, raising big questions over the future of his government and opening the prospect of snap elections.
Leftwing rebels in the ruling Syriza party, and his junior coalition partner, the right-wing Independent Greeks party, indicated they would not tear up election pledges that brought them to power in January.
"We cannot agree to that," Independent Greeks leader Panos Kammenos told reporters after meeting Tsipras. "In a parliamentary democracy, there are rules and we uphold them."
A meeting of the Syriza parliamentary group on Tuesday morning could see Energy Minister Panagiotis Lafazanis and Deputy Labor Minister Dimistris Stratoulis sacked over their opposition to the bailout.
There may also be a battle over parliament speaker Zoe Constantinopoulou, an uncompromising leftwinger who also defied Tsipras over the bailout and who could create serious procedural obstacles for the package.
CONDITIONAL AGREEMENT
If the summit on Greece's third bailout had failed, Athens would have been staring into an economic abyss with its banks on the brink of collapse and the prospect of having to print a parallel currency and exit the euro.
Instead it won conditional agreement to receive a possible 86 billion euros ($95 billion) over three years, provided its European partners are satisfied that the conditions are met.
"The agreement was laborious, but it has been concluded. There is no Grexit," European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker told a news conference after 17 hours of bargaining.
He dismissed suggestions that Tsipras had been humiliated even though the summit statement insisted repeatedly that Greece must now subject much of its public policy to prior agreement by bailout monitors.
"In this compromise, there are no winners and no losers," Juncker said. "I don't think the Greek people have been humiliated, nor that the other Europeans have lost face. It is a typical European arrangement."
Euro zone finance ministers told officials to prepare options for bridge financing arrangements during talks on a bailout and a decision is expected by Wednesday.
Athens must meet a tight timetable for enacting unpopular reforms of value added tax, pensions, budget cuts, bankruptcy rules and an EU banking law that could be used to make big depositors take losses.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel said she could recommend "with full confidence" that the Bundestag authorize the opening of loan negotiations once the Greek parliament has approved the entire program and passed the first laws.
The Bundestag is due to vote on Greece on Friday.
Merkel's allies defended the deal, with her chief of staff, Peter Altmaier, saying Europe had won and Germany "was part of the solution -- from the beginning until the end!"
But in Greece, relief was mixed with anger at Germany. "Listen, it is some sort of victory but it is a pyrrhic victory because the measures are very strict," said Marianna, 73.
Asked whether the tough conditions imposed on Greece were similar to the 1919 Versailles treaty that forced crushing reparations on a defeated Germany after World War One, Merkel said: "I won't take part in historical comparisons, especially when I didn't make them myself."
The deterioration of the Greek economy since Tsipras won office in January, and particularly in the last two weeks, had led to a much higher financing need, she said.
One senior EU official put the cost to Greece of the last two weeks of turmoil at 25 to 30 billion euros. A euro zone diplomat said it might be closer to 50 billion euros.
Malta's Prime Minister Joseph Muscat said Greece had been "humiliated", mostly as a result of its refusal to take an offer made to it two weeks ago, and he said the talks had been brutal.
"It was not pretty to watch," he said
STATE ASSETS
Tsipras accepted a compromise on German-led demands for the sequestration of Greek state assets worth 50 billion euros, including recapitalized banks, in a trust fund beyond government reach, to be sold off primarily to pay down debt. In a gesture to Greece, some 12.5 billion euros of the proceeds would go to investment in Greece, Merkel said.
The Greek leader had to drop his opposition to a full role for the International Monetary Fund in the next bailout, which Merkel had insisted on to win parliamentary backing in Berlin.
In a sign of how hard it may be for Tsipras to convince his own Syriza party to accept the deal, Labor Minister Panos Skourletis said the terms were unviable and would lead to new elections this year.
Six sweeping measures including spending cuts, tax hikes and pension reforms must be enacted by Wednesday night and the entire package endorsed by parliament before talks can start, the leaders decided.
In almost the only concession after imposing its tough terms on Tsipras, Germany dropped a proposal to make Greece take a "time-out" from the euro zone that many said resembled a forced ejection if it failed to meet the conditions.
Tsipras was subjected to a 17-hour browbeating by leaders furious that he had spurned their previous bailout offer on more favorable terms in June and had held a referendum last week to reject it. Only France and Italy worked to try to soften the terms being imposed on Greece.
Some diplomats questioned whether it was feasible to rush the package through the Greek parliament in three days and even if this week's rescue succeeds, some also question whether Greece will stay the course on a three-year program.
Euro zone finance ministers were tasked with finding sources of immediate bridge funding for Greece to prevent it defaulting on a key payment to the ECB next Monday.
Greece needs 7 billion euros by July 20, when it must make a bond redemption to the ECB, and 12 billion euros by mid-August when another ECB payment falls due.
The ECB on Monday maintained emergency funding for Greek banks to keep them just afloat this week, a banking source said.
($1 = 0.9083 euros)
(Additional reporting by Alastair Macdonald, Andreas Rinke, Tom Koerkemeier, Philip Blenkinsop, Julia Fioretti, Alexander Saeedy, Robert-Jan Bartunek and Julien Ponthis in Brussels, George Georgiopoulos, Costas Pitas and Lefteris Karagiannopoulos in Athens; Writing by Paul Taylor and James Mackenzie; Editing by Philippa Fletcher and Robin Pomeroy)
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Edited by - BlueWhaleMoon on 07/15/2015 20:09:04 |
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cwchang2100
我是老鳥
Cayman Islands
17243 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2015 : 21:50:11
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類似那段黑體字的描述,已經不知道出現多少遍了.
如果有讀以往相關報導的網友,應該一點都不陌生.
那段沒有什麼特別之處.
所謂自願是沒啥意義的.
"被形勢所迫的自願"和"強迫",意思是一樣的.
要不然德國沒事搞個Plan B的脫歐方案,是吃飽撐著嗎?
希臘現金乾掉了,就算沒人強迫,也得被迫自願脫離歐元區.
parallel currency就只是指轉換期.
形式上不脫離,還是沒有現金,那有個屁用?
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這些秘密話語來自活著的耶穌，由迪迪摩斯•猶大•多馬記錄。
他說：「任何人發現了這些話的意義，將不會嚐到死亡的滋味。」
多馬福音第1節 |
Edited by - cwchang2100 on 07/15/2015 21:50:38 |
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BlueWhaleMoon
我是老鳥
13032 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2015 : 00:56:40
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總之希臘不能被踢出歐元區 但是可以自願離開歐元區
如前所述 已經出現在很多報導很多次了
所以希臘是可以自願離開歐元區的 這也是大家的共識 |
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cwchang2100
我是老鳥
Cayman Islands
17243 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2015 : 04:19:55
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Grexit代表什麼意思? 自願嗎?
德國的Plan B是什麼意思? 自願嗎?
傻話說100遍,也不會變真話.
要用阿Q式的精神勝利法,說是"大家"的共識,我也沒辦法.
(不考慮“全球”或"全宇宙"?!)
一直說希臘不能被踢出歐元區,
那希臘在怕什麼? 德國的退歐條款是什麼?
能無視現實,我也真的是佩服了...
這樣硬撐下去...真的好嗎?
-----------------
這些秘密話語來自活著的耶穌，由迪迪摩斯•猶大•多馬記錄。
他說：「任何人發現了這些話的意義，將不會嚐到死亡的滋味。」
多馬福音第1節 |
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cwchang2100
我是老鳥
Cayman Islands
17243 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2015 : 11:08:35
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33535205
Greece debt crisis: Eurozone deal laws backed by MPs
希臘國會通過紓困案了.
不知道網友們的判斷是對是錯?
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這些秘密話語來自活著的耶穌，由迪迪摩斯•猶大•多馬記錄。
他說：「任何人發現了這些話的意義，將不會嚐到死亡的滋味。」
多馬福音第1節 |
Edited by - cwchang2100 on 07/16/2015 11:10:28 |
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toga
版主
Tajikistan
12781 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2015 : 11:44:23
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絕境至此，無論怎麼選應該都無啥對錯是非之分了，一切早在希臘人民決定讓稀世政治小丑齊普拉斯上台時就已注定大錯特錯矣。
就在不過半個多月前，齊普拉斯還在那邊慷慨激昂的要求選民公投時反對遵節：＂如果希臘人民在公投中決定接受歐盟的遵節計畫，我會接受，但我也會辭職下台∼我絕不會當接受這等喪權辱國協議的國家總理！！！＂
結果半個月後，齊普拉斯形同對德國土下座之餘還被梅克爾一腳將頭踩進爛泥堆裡，最後灰頭土臉拿著更狠更苛更絕情，更加惡毒不留餘地的政變滅國協議要求自家陣營議員買單：＂你們要同意接受喔，不然我們的陣營就要喪失政權，我就不能繼續當希臘總理惹∼∼∼＂
古今中外歷朝各代，政客前後言行不一，出醜丟家之事例自是不勝枚舉，但能像齊普拉斯這般在這麼短的時間內自打嘴巴成這種地步的醜態，個人一時間還真想不出先例來.....
一萌二PAK三聯閃，四代歐風五國潘，十全側衛百戰鷹，成千蟲隼萬國繁。 |
Edited by - toga on 07/16/2015 13:39:54 |
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toga
版主
Tajikistan
12781 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2015 : 12:25:48
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德國佬對梅克爾希臘危機事件作為的民意調查：
55%梅克爾做得好！！
31%梅克爾做得還不夠狠。
14%沒意見。
http://www.cna.com.tw/news/aopl/201507150363-1.aspx
民調顯示，超過半數的德國人認同總理梅克爾（Angela Merkel）就希臘紓困協商所採取的立場。另外有超過8成的受調者表示，對於希臘是否施行改革，他們感到懷疑。
佛爾沙研究中心（Forsa）為「明星週刊」（Stern）所做的民調顯示，55%的受調者認為，梅克爾在磋商新一套紓困案時，對希臘所採取的態度是正確的。另外31%的受調者表示，更願意見到梅克爾強迫希臘退出歐元區，14%的人沒有表示意見。
據傳梅克爾與財政部長蕭伯樂（Wolfgang Schaeuble）在布魯塞爾的歐元區領袖峰會上，對希臘採取強硬立場。
在野綠黨的支持者最挺梅克爾，他們當中有75%表示，支持梅克爾所採取的立場。梅克爾在她所屬基督教民主黨（CDU）支持者中獲66%的肯定，在執政聯盟夥伴社會民主黨（SPD）的潛在選民中，支持度也達62%。甚至連左派黨（Linke）的擁護者也有53%認同梅克爾處理希債談判的舉措。
不過81%的受訪者表示，他們強烈懷疑希臘是否會依約定施行改革，只有14%的人表示不懷疑。佛爾沙研究中心總共在13日訪問1001名國民，誤差值為3個百分點。
經歷長達17個小時的馬拉松協商後，歐元區國家及政府領袖終於在13日就第3度紓困方案的條件達成共識，希臘政府的緊縮及改革承諾是峰會達成共識的基礎。
希臘總理齊普拉斯（Alexis Tsipras）必須在今天午夜前讓國會通過紓困協議，歐元區才會開始對希臘紓困。
一萌二PAK三聯閃，四代歐風五國潘，十全側衛百戰鷹，成千蟲隼萬國繁。 |
Edited by - toga on 07/16/2015 12:31:20 |
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cwchang2100
我是老鳥
Cayman Islands
17243 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2015 : 14:59:12
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......其實我只是想知道海外基金怎麼了? 
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這些秘密話語來自活著的耶穌，由迪迪摩斯•猶大•多馬記錄。
他說：「任何人發現了這些話的意義，將不會嚐到死亡的滋味。」
多馬福音第1節 |
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toga
版主
Tajikistan
12781 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2015 : 15:38:10
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個人的海外基金投資沒有歐洲地區部分，所持基金項目在這幾天的漲跌幅度似乎不大，續留可也，賣了也沒虧。
一萌二PAK三聯閃，四代歐風五國潘，十全側衛百戰鷹，成千蟲隼萬國繁。 |
Edited by - toga on 07/16/2015 15:39:31 |
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標題 |
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希臘公投
