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Steve Su
路人甲乙丙
2195 Posts |
 Posted - 10/22/2007 : 07:10:35
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話說回來
咱家的AT-3教育出很多英才呢
從F-104到今日的二代戰機都有
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SMTT
新手上路
85 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2008 : 23:23:07
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| 還是去買韓國的T50如何? |
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Luke-Skywalker
我是老鳥
Taiwan
26649 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2008 : 23:58:18
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quote:
Originally posted by SMTT
還是去買韓國的T50如何?
你想被K啊.........
漢翔準備研發新一代的AT-X
=========================
May the Force be with you
President of IMFS(International Military Fans Society) |
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SMTT
新手上路
85 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2008 : 00:24:26
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| 我看到的資料是T50花了6X億美金才研發出來，我們國軍好像沒有那種財力...如果有的話倒不如研發新戰機好了...至少重要性大多了 |
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James.luo
路人甲乙丙
939 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2008 : 00:28:50
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| 有經國號就一定要買緯國號? |
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Luke-Skywalker
我是老鳥
Taiwan
26649 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2008 : 00:40:32
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quote:
Originally posted by James.luo
有經國號就一定要買緯國號?
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3678988
Feng Shih-Kuan
AIDC Chairman and CEO
Published: 18 August 2008
As military deals with its home country have dwindled, Taiwan's Aerospace Industrial Development Corp. (AIDC) has pushed into the commercial arena in recent years. Its commercial partnerships and deals include manufacturing the empennages for the Learjet 40/45, Challenger CL-300 business jet and the C-27J Spartan military cargo plane. Other deals include the production of Airbus A320 training edge panels, Dassault Falcon 900/2000 business jet rudder, Sikorsky S-76 cabin/crew door and S-92 cockpit. Total engine manufacturing includes the 601K industrial engine, CT7 turboshaft engine and the AS907 turbofan.
However, AIDC is working on an upgrade of Taiwan's Indigenous Defense Fighter (IDF)-2 and is planning a new attack trainer to replace the aging AT-3 jet trainer.
Feng "Kent" Shih-Kuan, who retired as vice chief of the General Staff at Taiwan's Ministry of National Defense (MND) in 2006, was appointed AIDC's chairman and CEO in May 2006. Feng is a former Taiwan Air Force F-5 fighter pilot and was a military attaché to the United Arab Emirates and the United States.
Q. What were your expectations for changing AIDC when you joined, and how have your views changed since?
A. I have instructed AIDC management in new directions - that is, to meet national defense needs, to expand the scale of Taiwan's aerospace industry and to reinforce strategic business alliances.
These are my goals in leading AIDC forward. I know that we have many challenges in front of us. I face these challenges and strive to accelerate AIDC's pace in moving forward. We still have a long way to go, but the courses have been set. I am sure we will see more progress within a short time.
For a state company to be a commercial entity is not easy, but I am confident it will be a success in the long run.
Q. What have you done to improve AIDC's financial situation?
A. AIDC's gross revenue in 2007 was $475 million, which was a growth rate of 18 percent higher than 2006. By controlling costs, the average gross profit ratio for the civilian program was 5 percent. The profit margin for military programs was higher than civilian.
In 2008, we expect the profit will be higher than 2007, but the soaring cost of raw material will squeeze profits, along with the uncertainties in the aviation industry associated with rising oil prices.
AIDC is taking two measures to improve the financial situation: reducing costs and company privatization. AIDC is a state-owned company operating under the Ministry of Economic Affairs. Company privatization is the only way for long-term development. A strategic business unit spin-off is under consideration now.
Q. What are AIDC's plans? What programs are planned or have been implemented?
A. AIDC's five-year business plan can be categorized in military and commercial programs and company facility enhancement.
AIDC is a leading provider of aircraft components and structures. Customers include Boeing, Airbus, Sikorsky, Bell, Bombardier Aerospace, Dassault and Alenia. Military programs include a new advanced trainer and an upgrade to the Indigenous Defense Fighter. Commercial ones include the Bell M429 helicopter, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries MRJ 70/90 regional jet, Boeing B787 and Airbus A380 programs.
As for the engines, it is our hope to pursue parts-manufacturing deals, which include GEAE GE90 and GENx, Rolls-Royce V2500 and Snecma CFM56.
AIDC is also trying to build the Advanced Composite Center by 2009. By then, AIDC shall have an adequate composite material capability to fully support global market demands.
Q. With direct flights between China and Taiwan, and economic and political agreements between the two countries planned, do you see AIDC and mainland Chinese aerospace companies working closely in the future?
A. Given the fact that major international aerospace companies such as Boeing, GEAE [General Electric Aircraft Engines] and Airbus have invested and set up manufacturing plants in China, AIDC is mapping out possible cooperation plans with aerospace industries in China.
Our plan includes pushing for government deregulation by appealing to the Taiwan government and legislature to relax restrictions on investment and trade with state-owned enterprises in and with China. We want to be a key supplier to China. The fact that AIDC is a qualified supplier to many major international aerospace companies will be instrumental to our pursuit as a key supplier to China's aerospace industry.
We want to establish a research and development center, as well as a design center, in China to enhance our competitiveness and profitability. We want to source raw materials for aircraft or engine parts manufactured from China. We also want to outsource labor to China by seeking reliable partners in China to outsource labor-intensive or low-profit work. And we want to take part in risk- and revenue-sharing programs of major international aerospace companies through strategic alliances with companies in China.
Q. What does AIDC do for Taiwan's military?
A. AIDC has offered the Air Force comprehensive maintenance service as well as total logistics support. Support contracts include fleet support and a government-owned, contractor-operated arrangement.
Two years ago, the life extension program for the AT-3 jet trainer was completed, and there are no plans for additional AT-3 upgrades.
The IDF upgrade program will be launched in 2009. There have been more than 200 test flights of the IDF upgrade prototypes, and it is verified to be compliant with the original design goal. The plan is still under consideration by the Air Force.
Q. Do you think the U.S. sale of F-16s will kill the IDF upgrade program? Do U.S. arms sales hurt Taiwan's indigenous defense industry?
A. The U.S. Foreign Military Sales [FMS] program is the primary method of Taiwan's Ministry of National Defense in procuring weapons. In the 1980s and 1990s, the FMS program significantly helped establish the fundamental technologies and infrastructure of Taiwan's aerospace industry. This includes co-production of 108 UH-1H helicopters and 308 F-5E/F fighters.
Taiwan's aerospace industry has evolved to take advantage of global aviation trends. I would like to say that the F-16C/D and IDF-2 upgrade play different roles in Taiwan's defense.
Q. The AT-3 fighter trainers are going to be replaced at some point in the future. What is AIDC offering the Air Force?
A. In order to meet the Air Force pilot training requirement, AIDC launched an indigenous advanced trainer development program in late 2006. The conceptual design phase has been finished, and AIDC is also looking for international cooperation to help facilitate the program.
Q. What is the status of your manufacturing agreement with Bell to produce tailbooms for the new UH-1Y and AH-1Z helicopters for the U.S. Marine Corps?
A. AIDC has delivered more than 20 shipsets of the H-1 tailboom for the USMC. A new memorandum of agreement will be signed for new lots soon. AIDC will keep providing the high-quality tailbooms for the USMC through Bell. AIDC is producing parts for the Sikorsky S-92 under the contract.
AIDC positively foresees more customers in Taiwan's aerospace market.
Q. Were you disappointed when Taiwan's Army selected the Boeing AH-64D and Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk over the Bell AH-1Z and UH-1Y, especially considering your 30-year relationship with Bell?
A. Taiwan's military conducted a conscientious and integrated evaluation for the Army's helicopter acquisition. Many factors needed to be considered to meet operational requirements. I believe that the selection of the Boeing AH-64D and Sikorsky UH-60 definitely came out of a comprehensive evaluation process determined by performance and costs.
Besides, for weapon system procurements with budgets over $5 million, an offset obligation called the Industry Cooperation Program [ICP] is supposed to be fulfilled under government supervision. AIDC will be able to take advantage of this to get more contracts through either direct or indirect ICP plans.
Despite the fact that Bell showed an aggressive intent to win the Army's helicopter program, Boeing, Sikorsky and Bell are all vital customers to AIDC. They are continuing to expand business relationships with AIDC due to our good quality and on-time delivery. For example, Bell is discussing with AIDC a collaboration contract on its new commercial helicopter. We should have good news shortly.
Q. You produced the C-27J aircraft's empennage. Is that contract ongoing?
A. C-27J is currently under a low production rate. However, AIDC is making efforts to collaborate with Alenia to develop new business opportunities. In our understanding, there is a substantial requirement for the C-27J. We foresee a bright future between Alenia and AIDC.
COMPANY PROFILE
■ 2007 sales: $475 million.
■ Employees: 3,158 plus 1,383 contract employees.
■ Headquarters: Taichung, Taiwan.
■ History: Established in 1969, Taiwan's state-run AIDC has been involved in virtually every Taiwan military aircraft program. It has expanded into the commercial market with deals to make parts for Boeing, Bell Helicopter, Sikorsky and Dassault. AIDC has built or co-assembled military aircraft including the AT-3 attack trainer, F-5E/F fighter, UH-1H helicopter and the IDF.
Source: Defense News research
By Wendell Minnick in Taipei.
=========================
May the Force be with you
President of IMFS(International Military Fans Society) |
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dasha
版主
41804 Posts |
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max03max
我是菜鳥
Taiwan
317 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2010 : 23:43:33
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如果好一點初級教練機可以吃到一些高教機的教學科目
然後好一點的高教機/攻擊機可以擔任部訓機的部分任務
剩餘的戰術科目就到部隊學.....不知道這樣是否可行....省掉部訓機 |
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dasha
版主
41804 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2010 : 10:04:58
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quote:
Originally posted by max03max
如果好一點初級教練機可以吃到一些高教機的教學科目
然後好一點的高教機/攻擊機可以擔任部訓機的部分任務
剩餘的戰術科目就到部隊學.....不知道這樣是否可行....省掉部訓機
要讓高教可以發射AIM-120與LGB等級武器的話,人家直接當成部訓機看待了吧?
吉屋出售
台北縣板橋市大觀路一二樓公寓,接近國小至大學各級學校及公車總站,離捷運及板橋車站不遠.
詳情請洽0931043559田小姐 |
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max03max
我是菜鳥
Taiwan
317 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 17:38:29
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| 南韓的A/T-50、歐洲傳說中的MAKO應該都是這樣子的高級教練機，看看似有當部訓機的潛力....當然不必要到掛AIM-120去執行空戰....... |
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rockitten
我是老鳥
Australia
8191 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 18:04:24
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quote:
Originally posted by max03max
南韓的A/T-50、歐洲傳說中的MAKO應該都是這樣子的高級教練機，看看似有當部訓機的潛力....當然不必要到掛AIM-120去執行空戰.......
to make a jet to be an "acceptable" fighter, you need good engine and good radar, which, this 2 item worth more than half of the price of the jet........
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those "cheaper alternative fighters" such as MAKO, A/T-50, or FC-1, if their operators try to upgrade them to be "as good as a F-16C/D" their price will end up just about the same as a F-16C/D.....
小貓不會作模型，小貓只愛玩模型；看似小貓玩模型，其實模型玩小貓：
A B 補土白膠條，樹脂改套蝕刻片；凹線凸線凹凸線，乾磨水磨銼刀磨；
水性油性消光漆，乾掃手掃噴槍掃；模型一盒三百幾，零件一堆三千幾；
多買多作進步多，買了不作口水多；花錢耗時傷精神，小貓是隻敗家喵。 |
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dasha
版主
41804 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 19:39:35
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基本上現在的高教機就是訓練空戰技術了,部訓機就是要練BVR與LGB之類東西的.不訓這些那還只是高教機......
MAKO就是貴所以沒出來,K/A-50可是還要另外購買外接光電之類產品,空機價看不準......
吉屋出售
台北縣板橋市大觀路一二樓公寓,接近國小至大學各級學校及公車總站,離捷運及板橋車站不遠.
詳情請洽0931043559田小姐 |
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toga
版主
Tajikistan
12781 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 23:34:46
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根據當年所公布的計畫，Mako事實上是一款整體技術水準檔次比F-CK-1甚至JAS-39還高的輕型戰機，也因此其最後走向胎死腹中的命運∼包含阿聯在內，沒有任何國家空軍消受得起拿如此高級奢華的行頭來作部訓機。
南韓的A/T-50的下場比Mako要好些，因為一來其性能技術水準要求較切實際（因此比Mako明顯便宜），再者其有南韓空軍自家人需求的堅定支持，第三其有洛馬集團這強大靠山......然而即使如此，其價碼就高級戰鬥教練機界而言還是過高，以致於頭兩次對外競標都慘遭滑鐵盧，負於因次音速設計而更為廉價的義大利M346之手，現在就看老美空軍有無興趣，用其取代現役的AT-38／T-38超音速戰鬥攻擊教練機。
一萌二PAK三聯閃，四代歐風五國潘，十全側衛百戰鷹，成千蟲隼萬國繁。 |
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toga
版主
Tajikistan
12781 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 23:48:25
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老文新貼想當年∼輕小不再等於短腿—MAKO先進教練／輕型戰鬥機
戰機型式：教練機型/戰鬥機型
1. 機身空重：5800KG/6200KG
2. 內載燃油：3000KG/3300KG
3. 燃料分率： 0.341/ 0.347（Fuel Fraction = 內載燃料重 /（內載燃料重 + 戰機空重）
比FCK-1, JAS-39A更為輕小的六噸級機身, 卻有著比F-16和M2000-5還多的內載燃油; 其燃料分率是九噸級的F-16C/D Block50/52的1.4倍, 比十至十一噸級的EF2000和RAFALE等中型新世代戰機還高且幾乎可和十六至十八噸級的Su-27重型戰機相媲美; 在不使用適型油箱作弊為前提之下, 當世之間能比MAKO擁有更高燃油分率的戰鬥機只有F-22, JSF以及部分的蘇愷27系列戰機三款, 可是其任何一種的空重都在MAKO的兩倍以上.....拜高燃料分率之賜, MAKO戰鬥教練/輕型戰鬥機的最大飛送航程高達3700km, 與重量是其1.7至1.9倍的RAFALE與EF-2000等歐製中型先進戰機不相上下, 徹底扭轉輕型戰機乃短腿戰機之同義詞的宿命; 除此之外, 其載彈量在輕型戰機界亦屬一流：4500kg, 和JAS-39A約略相當........
MAKO的設計理念：
EADS集團認為，為了使飛行員順利自教練機訓練轉換至新世代戰機（F-22、EF-2000、JSF、疾風、F-15改、超級大黃蜂、F-16 Block60等等......）操作，新一代戰鬥教練機有必要提供與新世代戰機相類似的超音速飛行性能、推重比、翼負荷、飛行包絡線以及相當的座艙航電與射控系統，MAKO就是基於上述理念所產生的科技結晶。
根據EADS最近所公佈的一份飛行包絡線圖（X軸：飛行時速，單位馬赫。Y軸：高度。Z軸：SEP，單位ft/sec）比較顯示，目前各國廣泛使用的次音速戰鬥教練機，其飛行包絡線範圍只有第四／第五世代戰機的10％不到，而MAKO戰鬥教練機卻能有著其七成至八成左右的飛行包絡線範圍，因此經由MAKO訓練出來的戰機飛行員在駕駛操作新一代戰機時，其適應上手的時間將快得多。
此外，EADS集團也以F-16C/D Block50／52為基準，將MAKO與其主要競爭對手的基本飛行性能諸元作一比較：
評量對象：
1. MAKO
2. T／A-50（南韓大宇和美國洛馬合作開發的金鷹式超音速戰鬥教練／攻擊機）
3. M-346（俄羅斯Yak-130戰鬥教練機外銷版）
4. JAS-39A Gripen
戰機型號：F-16／MAK／J39／T50／M346／
迴轉速率：1.00／0.96／1.00／0.88／0.76／（持續）
迴轉速率：1.00／1.09／1.04／0.97／0.97／（瞬間，F-16C/D：28.4度／秒）
推力重比：1.00／0.90／0.76／0.74／0.70／（F-16C/D空戰推重比：1.22）
武器籌載：1.00／0.66／0.66／0.40／0.37／（F-16C/D：≒6500kg）
燃料分率：1.00／1.35／1.06／1.16／1.06／（F-16C/D：0.264~0.273）
MAKO戰鬥教練型／輕型戰機型
引擎動力：
戰鬥教練型採用一具SEJ200渦扇發動機，最大軍用推力13500磅，後燃推力16860磅；至於輕型戰機型則可使用最大後燃推力達20250磅一級的發動機。除了EJ200系列發動機以外，Mako亦可視顧客要求改用美製F404／F414系列或法製M88-2／-3系列發動機。
火控雷達：
* 基本要求：具備RWS與TWS功能，可以偵測64目標並自動追蹤其中六個。!d5J0G
* 選擇對象：美製AN/APG-67系列、意製Grifo系列、法製RC400系列、英製Bluehawk系列vI_
基本飛行性能諸元：
1. 最高飛行時速：高空1.5Mach，海平面1.1Mach。
2. 低可控制飛行時速：100節（185km/h）
3. 著地時速：110至120節（204~222km/h）
4. 起／降跑道長：450／750m（1480／2460ft）
5. 爬升率：15000m（49200ft）／min（海平面）
6. 實用升限：14400m（47240ft）
7. 操作升限：15240m（50000ft）
8. 飛送航程：3704km（2000nm）
9. 耐Ｇ限度：-3~+9Ｇ
10 Maintenance man-hour／flight hour：3/1
重量性能諸元：
1. 機身空重：6200kg／5800kg（輕型戰機型／戰鬥教練機型）
2. 標準起飛：9400kg／8100kg（輕型戰機型／戰鬥教練機型）
3. 滿載起飛：13000kg
4. 內載燃油：3300kg
5. 外掛彈量：4500kg
6. 機翼負荷：352.1kg/m2／303.4kg/m2（輕型戰機型／戰鬥教練機型，標準起飛重量）
7. Max. Power Loading：104kg/KN／90kg/KN（輕型戰機型／戰鬥教練機型，標準起飛重量）
尺寸性能諸元：
1. 機全長：13.75m
2. 機全高：4.50m
3. 翼展長：8.25m
4. 翼面積：26.8m2
5. 展弦比：2.6
6. 雷達截面積：1m2於44km處
一萌二PAK三聯閃，四代歐風五國潘，十全側衛百戰鷹，成千蟲隼萬國繁。 |
Edited by - toga on 07/25/2010 23:49:04 |
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max03max
我是菜鳥
Taiwan
317 Posts |
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hawkeye
我是老鳥
6205 Posts |
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Steve Su
路人甲乙丙
2195 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2010 : 21:49:00
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>>我們空軍又非常依賴美國的後勤和技令維修ˋ那我們要不要採用T-50?
AT-3都用那麼久了，還會非常依賴美國的後勤和技令維修? |
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SleeplessPrometheus
路人甲乙丙
3126 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2010 : 22:58:10
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而且.....美國有AT3跟IDF嗎?
沒有的話怎會有技令?
後勤零件這倒不敢講，但是就看自製率跟自製能力掌握程度吧?
如果完全掌握自製能力但是基於成本考量所以相當程度的零件外購這點應該是可接受相當於百分之百自製吧? |
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kudy
剛剛入門
14 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2010 : 22:35:17
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| 小弟認為應該選M-346比較合適，因為ENG不需重建後勤，而且F-124 ENG AIDC就可以掌握，甚至學新加坡向廠家談條件，將亞洲的F-124 ENG市場吃下來(通通包給AIDC)，光這些就已經有非常誘人的條件，更何況它的機體設計容錯預量較大，性能不輸其他機種，更何況合作生產可互利，比單獨研發、純粹購買都要來的好，以上為小弟淺見~~M-346 + 1 |
Edited by - kudy on 01/05/2011 16:44:53 |
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Bcl2
新手上路
Taiwan
67 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2010 : 23:32:34
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quote:
而且.....美國有AT3跟IDF嗎?
沒有的話怎會有技令?
後勤零件這倒不敢講，但是就看自製率跟自製能力掌握程度吧?
如果完全掌握自製能力但是基於成本考量所以相當程度的零件外購這點應該是可接受相當於百分之百自製吧?
AT-3大多數的次系統均沿用自F-5
同理
IDF和F-16也有類似的淵源
這兩款機型的技令編撰/更新與零件供應美方也幫了不少忙
不過我也推M346
T-50看起來不知怎地有種噁心感
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Edited by - Bcl2 on 08/15/2010 23:36:18 |
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Steve Su
路人甲乙丙
2195 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2010 : 10:20:34
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>>這兩款機型的技令編撰/更新與零件供應美方也幫了不少忙
沒有~
AT-3是用了許多F-5E/F的零件如鼻輪與機輪等，但是飛機不管是飛行
或是維護的技令上都與F-5E/F不相同。例如F-5E/F鼻輪有HIKE，AT-3
就沒有，即使兩者是一樣的東西，但是AT-3的鼻輪就是少了HIKE的功能
因為AT-3不需要。
IDF與F-16是有淵源，但是IDF的所有技令可是七中隊接收先導量產型的時候
與航發編撰出來的，更是完全和後來的F-16不搭嘎。尤其TC-2相關還是
在飛彈危機期間趕出來的。 |
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陸戰屋小步兵
版主
7782 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 09:19:26
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看來自尊心是最重的考量 跟女孩子講"感覺"一樣
學書未成先習劍
用劍無它A讀書
讀書習劍兩無成
落魄江湖它W負 |
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toga
版主
Tajikistan
12781 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 23:56:54
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台灣在這方面的自尊心紀錄像是女孩子的感覺∼像AV女優拍A片時的感覺。
一邊高喊著”拒絕韓貨，愛用國貨”，”南韓能我們為什麼不能”（”不要過來！！再過來我就要叫了.....噫呀啊啊啊∼∼∼！！！”）
一邊平時不投入實質心力物力追求獨立自主，到了被迫外購時又貪小便宜，把開標價格訂的低到除南韓佬外，別無其他外商可能得標的地步（在被AV男優追趕時儘往無人死路暗處跑，在被捉住時一邊噫呀哭喊助興，一邊兩腿開開，準備受胎......）
自強號採購案，雷霆兩千火箭卡車競標案........就個人看來，活脫脫是一部部精彩絕倫，教人扯旗的”口嫌體正直”系列傑作啊......
一萌二PAK三聯閃，四代歐風五國潘，十全側衛百戰鷹，成千蟲隼萬國繁。 |
Edited by - toga on 08/18/2010 00:03:27 |
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HOTARU
路人甲乙丙
3584 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2010 : 01:32:32
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| 這是現在最流行的傲嬌,灣娘超萌的~~w |
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小毛
我是老鳥
Taiwan
10742 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 13:49:47
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不知道為何沒有人考慮重新建造AT-3?過了幾十年所應該改進的，應該只要改成玻璃座艙，發動機換成5000磅推力的TFE-731其他款，基本上還是能夠滿足空軍的需求。畢竟教練機滿足教學需要就好，外型老派一點應該沒關係吧....
改叫 AT-3 2010 or AT-2020?
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標題 |
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關於國軍新一代的教練機~~
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